The 3 tiers...

[George LeS]

Byzantium? I mean, that's not disputable given the interests of EU players, but it's pretty odd to give extra attention to a nation that should be swallowed up in the beginning of any game that follows a semi-historical path.

And given that BYZ is in, I'm surprised the USA isn't. I'm guessing that means the "late 18th century" = 1776.

Neither BYZ nor USA belongs. They just didn't exist long enough, in game terms. In an earlier game, obviously BYZ would be key; later, we would.

Other than that, I think it's a reasonable list. I'd replace Byzantium with Oman, though. Look at what they did in the 17th-18th C. There weren't many non-European nations which EXPANDED in areas the Europeans were active.

But then, that's what mods are for.

 

[Johan]

Byz are there cause of fans wanting them in..

I agree that Oman needs some love..

 

[Rythin]

I think the list is fairy well thought out and a decision to favour Sweden & Russia over Poland & Denmark, however a little disappointing from my subjective point of view, is actually fair and well-grounded.

Also, I would like to compliment Johan on addressing the influx of threads about this or that country being over- or underpowered. Way to reach out to the community, guys!

 

[Keanon]

Also, I would like to compliment Johan on addressing the influx of threads about this or that country being over- or underpowered. Way to reach out to the community, guys!

Very much this, it's very much the perfect way to communicate with the community's concerns.

 

[Kimberly]

Byzantium? I mean, that's not disputable given the interests of EU players, but it's pretty odd to give extra attention to a nation that should be swallowed up in the beginning of any game that follows a semi-historical path.

And given that BYZ is in, I'm surprised the USA isn't. I'm guessing that means the "late 18th century" = 1776.

Regardless of the specific end date, it makes little sense to include a country that's unlikely to exist for the vast majority of the game as one of your developmental priorities. While Byzantium would be destroyed quickly historically, it's a very popular faction for people to play; it's not just historical factors that go into the tiers, but gameplay ones as well.

The only thing I found a bit lacking was Bohemia--not because of historical importance, which I won't argue, but because it is definitely in the group where "behavior is important"--see EU3's Trollhemia. I guess it doesn't need to be on the list if they fix semi-ridiculous expansion in terms of game mechanics, though.

 

[Dankysh]

Very much this, it's very much the perfect way to communicate with the community's concerns.

Indeed. It's why I spend so much time on these forums. Which in turn led me to other Paradox products and gets me excited for EUIV. Already I would be willing to pre-purchase EUIV for next year!

I also agree that Oman should get some love as well. They are really fun to play with, and probably my most favourite Non-Christian country (excluding OE).

 

[Chamboozer]

No Saxony in Tier 3? They came very close to being the main North German power in this time period.

Generally I find this list to be not so bad though.

 

[Sir Iain]

Saxony needs some fixing, both the history files and the province map are grossly distorted in this area. No wonder, because Saxony is very confusing unill 1547.

Great list by the way, and very good poly to share the list.

 

[No idea]

Agree mostly with the list, the only change I would do would be put Sweden in tier 2, nothing against the swedes but I see nations on tier 2 that I think that are more important than Sweden in my honest opinion.

The fact that the Netherlands is not formed by the start of the game had to see a lot to keep them out of tier 1, IMHO. Same goes for Prussia. On top of that, Prussia´s rise to power started around mid/late game. Too late. China should have been tier 1, but this is EUROPA Universalis, after all, as Johan said.

 

[No idea]

Byz are there cause of fans wanting them in..

Thank you for that. Who does not want to play the old, decrepit, powerless Constantinople to make the Roman Empire be reborn from its ashes?

 

[Haresus]

Norway got a tier 3 spot... For being in a personal union with Denmark for the entire game? That is one thing I might find odd, after looking a bit extra. Some German power could easily have gained that spot instead.
Ulm, maybe?

 

[Herr Doctor]

Sweden & Poland could be quite randomly exchanged. Apart from that, the list is not very disputable?

Burgundy, the Netherlands (when formed), Venice, Poland and China are the way much more important both for history and gameplay than the very remote isolated northern kingdom that never actually raised to anything except the regional power (17th century's "stormaktstiden").

 

[Falconnatic]

As proud dutchman it is always sad to see that we are best of the rest .

 

[Keanon]

Norway got a tier 3 spot... For being in a personal union with Denmark for the entire game? That is one thing I might find odd, after looking a bit extra. Some German power could easily have gained that spot instead.
Ulm, maybe?

You have to look at it differently, things could've gone in many directions and although Norway is -very- weak in the start due to the plague, it quickly gets rolling again providing the backbone for the very professional Dano-Norwegian fleet, had they left the union at some point earlier they could very well have changed everything and become very strong in different avenues and people who want to play Norway definitely deserve flavour and events.

Besides, Denmark-Norway was just as much Norway as it was Denmark, the imported German kings choosing the richest land as the 'main' land doesn't make Norway any inferior inside the union itself, Norwegians were easily the most loyal the crown towards the end of the union and they did not want 'independence' till it was a choice between that or a union with Sweden, in fact, the Norwegian felt highly betrayed that the king would simply 'sell' them off like that.

So depending upon how correctly they portray unions, Norwegian flavour can end up being important enough.


Besides, who's to say that it isn't Norway who leaves, Sweden who stays and Poland who dominates the Baltic? One should leave room for the nations who had the potential despite real history ending with them in the background.

 

[Grubnessul]

Burgundy, the Netherlands (when formed), Venice, Poland and China are the way much more important both for history and gameplay than the very remote isolated northern kingdom that never actually raised to anything except the regional power (17th century's "stormaktstiden").

I'd say the Netherlands also only had it's 120 years of glory, like Sweden. After all at the Peace of Utrecht (ending the Spanish Succession War in 1713) the French diplomat remarked correctly that they were there "at you, but about you and without you."

Burgundy ceased to exist quite fast in the game, so what DHEs would you want to write about them? Poland I agree with, but that's an rather random choice about those two. China, I don't think did that much in the period. Yes, it was powerful and rich and its was where the European silver went in exchange for chinaware and tea, but it was an isolated country. Again, DHEs are not supposed to be whatifs?

 

[Haresus]

You have to look at it differently, things could've gone in many directions and although Norway is -very- weak in the start due to the plague, it quickly gets rolling again providing the backbone for the very professional Dano-Norwegian fleet, had they left the union at some point earlier they could very well have changed everything and become very strong in different avenues and people who want to play Norway definitely deserve flavour and events.

Besides, Denmark-Norway was just as much Norway as it was Denmark, the imported German kings choosing the richest land as the 'main' land doesn't make Norway any inferior inside the union itself, Norwegians were easily the most loyal the crown towards the end of the union and they did not want 'independence' till it was a choice between that or a union with Sweden, in fact, the Norwegian felt highly betrayed that the king would simply 'sell' them off like that.

So depending upon how correctly they portray unions, Norwegian flavour can end up being important enough.


Besides, who's to say that it isn't Norway who leaves, Sweden who stays and Poland who dominates the Baltic? One should leave room for the nations who had the potential despite real history ending with them in the background.

Considering that it was Norway being sold off, and not Denmark, I think you can easily say that Denmark-Norway was quite a bit more Denmark than it ever was Norway...

 

[Herr Doctor]

I'd say the Netherlands also only had it's 100 years of glory, like Sweden. After all at the Peace of Utrecht (ending the 7 years war) the French diplomat remarked correctly that they were there "at you, but about you and without you."

This is true. But alike Sweden the United Provinces were one of the Europe's (and even global) superpowers and main players both economically, culturally, military (Maurician reform that was a real revolution in warfare) and politically. Same could be said about Burgundy for the 15th century until the unfortunate death of Duke Charles or about the role of Venice in the 15th-16th centuries. But I cannot say the same seriously about Sweden despite its great role in TYW and the Baltic politics, even prior to Poltava.

Really, I like the Swedish history and such but placing it among the 8 most important countries for late medieval and early modern history is just a big exaggeration.

 

[Jia Xu]

I just want to say thanks to PI for giving China enough love to put them into tier 2.

A question: Is this just for Ming or will Qing get to taste the flavour as well? Another question: Will Qing finally get its own tag this time?

 

[Histenchist]

Haha I'm laughing at the people who would like to see Poland in Tier 1 insted of Sweden. Check wikipedia and see how many wars Poland won versus Sweden in the game's time. Not so many huh? I see Sweden crushing Poland a couple of times though... Actually you can check all the Polish wars, check how many they won, if you don't count the "crushing the rebellion" the whole timeframe was pretty much Poland getting it in the ass!

No Poland cannot into Space.
They cannot even into Tier 1.

 

[C.N.]

Well, I consider Tier 1 and Tier 2 mostly OK. What is more of an issue to me is who is missing from Tier 3.

Now, I am not all that familiar with Asian & African states of the period, so I will not comment on those, but I think that at least the following are missing from Tier 3:
- Manchus (I suppose that they are included with China, but I list them to be sure)
- Bohemia (A major player as long as it was independent)
- Saxony (Could have become the major player in the area instead of Brandenburg)
- Aztecs (A major player for the first 80 years)
- USA (Relevant only for the last 40 years or so, but influental during them.)

I addition to those, there are nations I don't know about, but are often mentioned, like Oman.