Well, it's reborned! Like PhoenixKevin W. said:Ok, I was just concerned because of all of the threads talking about its demise.
Well, it's reborned! Like PhoenixKevin W. said:Ok, I was just concerned because of all of the threads talking about its demise.
Foxbat said:HQ and Garrisons are fine. But I don't like name "Special Forces Division". I understand that there are almost no mountain divisions today(10th Mountain Division I think is the only one left), but there were no SpecOps divisions. So if you don't like Mountain division, let's think of something else.
And here is my first try to do Industrial tech tree:
As inspiration I've took CORE2 industrial tech tree, so we also have specialised tech's that define country's type of economy(Agricultural, Semi-Industrial, Industrial, Post-Industrial). However, unlike in CORE2, those techs will be researchable, though their requirements will be very high. Also note Economic system techs. They suppose to work like this: when you research one of them(for example Capitalism), it fires event that gives some sort of bonuses(negative too) depending on system and also it activates other economic system techs for research too (that way player always can move from one economics system to another, but it will take some time).
Below Economics system's techs are agricultural techs, the higher industrialization level, the more agricultural techs playuer can research.
Light/Heavy industry techs were also inspired by CORE2(kudos to CORE team for their great mod). Each Heavy industry tech activates coresponding automotive industry and advanced material techs. Also heavy industries allow research of coresponding air industry techs on Air tech tab.
Automotive industry techs provide production bonuses for all motorised/mechanised land units(aviation industry techs also provide some bonuses for air squadrons).
Advanced materials techsare required by numbers of techs, like aviation industry, airmobile/amphibious tanks, rocket researches and e.t.c.
Electronics techs are required for Electronic computers , radar, C2, tanks, aircrafts and other researches.
Computer techs provide some bonuses for research speed, also they are required for advanced techs in different fields: armor, aircrafts, communications & command, rocketry and so on.
ARPANET/Internet techs are required for some advanced techs like C2. Also they provide research speed bonuses.
Rocketry/Radar/Encryption/Decryption techs are moved to Secret Weapons tab.
Foxbat said:For now they'll be in the air tab, because we'll have big secret weapons tab(missiles, encryption/decryption, space race). If there will be spare techs in Secret weapons tab we'll move Stealth to there.
Foxbat said:I don't think so, Attack helicopter main task is seeking and destroying MBT's, while CAS provide all-around ground support for troops. Sometimes troops need simple Mk-82 dropped on enemy position, helicopters(except for Mi-24 ) can't do that.
Foxbat said:The problem is, that NATO and W.P. divisions had different TO&E and doctrine effects can't recreate that difference completely. And can you tell me about military powers in that period not belonging/affected to/by either of those alliances?
Foxbat said:T-44, T-54, T-55, T-62, M47, M48 are medium tanks.
EDIT: Officialy,T-10(soviet heavy tank, ~8000 built) was decomissioned in 1993(40 years after it was introduced in 1954).
Foxbat said:And if you have other ideas, shoot them, they always will be appreciated.
Nope, those techs are there. They're to the right of economy type techs(30's, 40's 50's and so on).Brote Heckler said:I notice agricultural techs aren't on there...
Corporatism, Capitalsim, Socialist and Social MarketBrote Heckler said:I don't really understand what is different between capitalism and corporatism, America has corporations but is capitalist to...
Yes, something should be done to prvent players from switching them, though I still think that they should change somehow when needed. Events maybe? And they should provide some sort of bonuses, which we'll need to define.Brote Heckler said:I also suggest that industry and the more ambiguous economic system research be a bit more restricted, if you pick one you need to stick to it or else major penalties. Some countries had actual violent reactions to a change of government or whole economic action. By the way, what would economic system research entail, bonuses to the style of government if you so choose to research and stay on course with it?
Electronics are not always were made of microchips(in 80's - 90's for sure, but not in 50's - 60's), but I agree that these techs will be better with more imaginative names. So if you can do those names I'll surely put them in.Brote Heckler said:What about in place of electronics we put more common names, like for example, microchip production in the 40s and 50s.
There will be different doctrines for NATO/W.P. and neutral/3rd world coutries with subvaritions in those doctrines, so don't worry. And I'm concerned that you can't simulate diference between NATO/W.P. divisons without making them different models. For example. W.P. Mot division had more tanks in it than NATO one, how will you simulate it? With higher morale? Don't think so, US/British/French and so on morale was the same, strength shows percentage of battle ready men/machines, so it can't really simulate that too.Gen. Confusion said:the whole problem reminds me a lot to the differences between germans, italians and russians in the original game...
So where is the problem? Last Heavy tank tech is... "60's Heavy tank"! And it's required along with 60's Medium tank to research 70's MBT. And about their performance, I really doubt that T-10 was equal to first russian MBT T-64.this is also rather a timeline problem. saying there were no heavy tanks after ww2 was oversimplified for my part, thats true. but since late 60's russian t-10s were a rather unique thing. but from all i know, their performance were much the same of the MBTs, which was precisely the reason no other built something like them.
maybe the heavy tank tree could end up in attack helicopters?
Ofcourse researching NATO mot inf will disable W.P. Mot infantry and vice-versa.Kevin W. said:Out of curiosity, will researching one infantry tree disable the others? It'll seem kinda weird if you can research both NATO and WP infantry.
If we gonna make NATO units brigade sized, IMHO we should do it too W.P. too. Besides, I want to hear everybody's opinion on brigade/division sized units.hellfish6 said:As per my suggestion in the unit thread, I think making everyone but the WP counties have brigade sized land units would be best, but otherwise I think you've got a really solid plan here.
Spruance and Kidd are bad examples, Kidd class destroyers were intially built for Iran with specialised heavy duty anti-air, so they weren't supposed to serve in US navy. Also there were no specialised AA DDG classes in US navy except for Kidd class, IIRC. As for Udaloy, it's technically not destroyer. Russians call it Большой Противолодочный Корабль ор Big ASWShip(litterally) so it's better to move them to frigate techs or make them separate tech tree branch.hellfish6 said:What about for destroyers you have separate models for DDs and DDGs (i.e. you research 1960s DD and you get two models when you've finished researching it - DDs with are destroyers optimized for ASW and general purpose patrolling, and DDGs which have SAMs and antiship missiles). Up till about 1990, most nations had both types (i.e. the US Spruance class and the Kidd class, Soviet Sovremny and Udaloy classes).
Whoa, all modern frigates are FFG's, so I don't know if we really need FF's, name me frigate that don't have guided missiles built after 60's? About patrol boats, I've been thinking about them when was doing naval techs, but thouight that they were insignificant for the scale of the game.hellfish6 said:For frigates, do the same with FFs and FFGs, but maybe add two additional models - patrol gunboats and patrol missile boats. Gunboats can be armed with light gun armament and maybe torpedoes, missile boats have some significant anti-ship capability. Both patrol boats are short ranged but fast, with some additional stats tweaking to reflect their small size and ability to move easily around coastlines.
hellfish6 said:Also, Foxbat, can you explain how you'll get LHAs to work? IIRC, transports (and ships in a landing fleet) can't provide shore bombardment support to the troops being landed. Can they have CVS/CVL brigades attached to them too?
Foxbat said:If we gonna make NATO units brigade sized, IMHO we should do it too W.P. too. Besides, I want to hear everybody's opinion on brigade/division sized units.
Spruance and Kidd are bad examples, Kidd class destroyers were intially built for Iran with specialised heavy duty anti-air, so they weren't supposed to serve in US navy. Also there were no specialised AA DDG classes in US navy except for Kidd class, IIRC. As for Udaloy, it's technically not destroyer. Russians call it Большой Противолодочный Корабль ор Big ASWShip(litterally) so it's better to move them to frigate techs or make them separate tech tree branch.
Whoa, all modern frigates are FFG's, so I don't know if we really need FF's, name me frigate that don't have guided missiles built after 60's? About patrol boats, I've been thinking about them when was doing naval techs, but thouight that they were insignificant for the scale of the game.
We'll just add Shore bombardment value(it's a fist TP model on that screen, I just added shore bombardment value of 3), also those techs will increase shore attack modifiers.
Foxbat said:If you think that there should be changes in the naval models, take the list add the models and show us. And if it will be good we'll think together how we should edit tech tree to implement them. No problems. Just remember that we can't insert something just because US or USSR had 3 such ships(besides capital ships - BB's, CV's, BC's and so on).
EDIT: About brigade/regiment thing, I think that if we gonna do it, it should be done for everybody.
MODEL_21_0;WW-II Battleship;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_21_1;Nuclear Battleship;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_21_2;Arsenal Ship;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_0;WW-II Light Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_2;WW-II Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_3;'50s Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_4;'60s Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_5;'70s Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_6;'80s Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_7;'90s Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_8;Future Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
[B]MODEL_22_11;'60s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_12;'70s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_13;'80s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_14;'90s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_8;Future Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_11;'50s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_12;'60s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_13;'70s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_14;'80s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_15;'90s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_16;Future Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_18;'50s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_19;'60s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_20;'70s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_21;'80s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_22;'90s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_23;Future Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x[/B]
MODEL_23_0;WW-II Heavy Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_1;'50s Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_2;'60s Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_3;'70s Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_4;'80s Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_5;'90s Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_6;Future Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_7;'50s Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_8;'60s Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_9;'60s Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_11;'70s Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_12;'80s Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_13;'90s Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_23_14;Future Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_24_0;WW-II Battlecruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_24_1;Nuclear Battlecruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_24_2;'80s Heavy Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_24_3;'90s Heavy Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_24_4;Future Heavy Nuclear Guided Missile Cruiser;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_0;WW-II Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_1;'50s Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_2;'60s Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_3;'70s Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_4;'80s Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_5;'90s Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_6;Future Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
[B]MODEL_25_8;'50s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_9;'60s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_11;'70s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_25_12;'80s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x[/B]
MODEL_26_0;WW-II Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_1;'50s Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_2;'60s Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_3;'70s Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_4;'80s Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_5;'90s Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_6;Future Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_7;'60s Nuclear Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_8;'70s Nuclear Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_9;'80s Nuclear Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_11;'90s Nuclear Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_26_12;Future Nuclear Fleet Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_0;WW-II Light Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_1;'50s Light Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_2;'60s Light Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_3;'70s Light Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_4;'80s Light Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_5;'90s Light Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_6;Future Light Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_7;'50s ASW Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_8;'60s ASW Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_9;'70s ASW Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_11;'80s ASW Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_12;'90s ASW Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_27_13;Future ASW Carrier;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_0;WW-II Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_1;Post WW-II Diesel Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_2;'50s Diesel Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_3;'60s Diesel Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_4;'70s Diesel Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_5;'80s Diesel Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_6;'90s Diesel Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_28_7;Future Diesel Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_0;'50s Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_1;'60s Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_2;'70s Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_3;'80s Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_4;'90s Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_5;'90s Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_6;'60s Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_7;'70s Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_8;'80s Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_9;'90s Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_29_11;Future Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_0;Converted Cargo Ship;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_1;Attack Transport;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_2;Amphibious Transport Dock;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_3;Attack Cargo Ship;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_4;Armored Landing Ship;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_5;'70s LHA;;;;;;;;;;x #Amphibious Assault Ship
MODEL_30_6;'80s LHA;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_7;'90s LHA;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_30_8;Future LHA;;;;;;;;;;x
MODEL_22_11;'60s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x OK
MODEL_22_12;'70s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x OK
MODEL_22_13;'80s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x How many countries had frigates built in that period without guided missiles?
MODEL_22_14;'90s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x Same
MODEL_22_8;Future Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x Same
MODEL_25_8;'50s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x IMHO, too early
MODEL_25_9;'60s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_25_11;'70s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_25_12;'80s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x How many countries had destroyers built in that period without guided missiles?
MODEL_22_11;'50s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x OK
MODEL_22_12;'60s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_13;'70s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_14;'80s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_15;'90s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_16;Future Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_18;'50s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_19;'60s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_20;'70s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_21;'80s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_22;'90s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
MODEL_22_23;Future Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
Foxbat said:OK let's see.
Code:MODEL_22_11;'60s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x OK MODEL_22_12;'70s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x OK MODEL_22_13;'80s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x How many countries had frigates built in that period without guided missiles? MODEL_22_14;'90s Missile Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x Same MODEL_22_8;Future Frigate;;;;;;;;;;x Same MODEL_25_8;'50s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x IMHO, too early MODEL_25_9;'60s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_25_11;'70s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_25_12;'80s Missile Destroyer;;;;;;;;;;x How many countries had destroyers built in that period without guided missiles? MODEL_22_11;'50s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x OK MODEL_22_12;'60s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_13;'70s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_14;'80s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_15;'90s Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_16;Future Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_18;'50s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_19;'60s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_20;'70s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_21;'80s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_22;'90s Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok MODEL_22_23;Future Missile Patrol Boat;;;;;;;;;;x Ok
Ok, so as I suspected from 80's DD and onward there should be only one DD model. So we have 3 additional destroyer models 50's/60's/70's.hellfish6 said:I checked it out... I couldn't find examples of non-guided missile destroyers designed/built past about '79 or so.