I think Sancho Jimenez of Castille was the rightful heir to the English throne.
Or maybe in true CK1 fashion, the Al-Muribitids.
Or maybe in true CK1 fashion, the Al-Muribitids.
Stamford bridge and Hastings
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Enough Hastings. Let's talk about the War of the Three Sanchos.
Though I don't think that the Visigoths ended up as far north as England, except as slaves of course. 
I'm wondering about the following scenario:
1) Harald, being clever, moves his army out of England to await the result of the anglo-norman conflict.
2) William, the duke of Normandy and a vassal of the King of France, defeats Harold and enforces his claim on the English throne.
3) The duchy of Normandy is now owned by the king of England so it becomes de facto a part of the kingdom of England.
4) Harald suddenly lands in southern England and defeats the still recovering Norman army, William is forced to give up the English throne to Harald.
5) Will Normandy still be a part of the Kingdom of England, with William the duke of Normandy a vassal to Harald the king of Norway and England?
1) Harald, being clever, moves his army out of England to await the result of the anglo-norman conflict.
2) William, the duke of Normandy and a vassal of the King of France, defeats Harold and enforces his claim on the English throne.
3) The duchy of Normandy is now owned by the king of England so it becomes de facto a part of the kingdom of England.
4) Harald suddenly lands in southern England and defeats the still recovering Norman army, William is forced to give up the English throne to Harald.
5) Will Normandy still be a part of the Kingdom of England, with William the duke of Normandy a vassal to Harald the king of Norway and England?
normandy will be a part of france no matter what, so william will pay homage to phillip regardless of his holdings outside of france.
no no no... characters own titles, and they make war over those titles. but if you only have a claim to one of those titles, then all you can take from the vanquished is that one title.
If Harald defeats William he can take the "King of England" title from him, but not the titles "Duke of Normandy", "Count of Rouen" or "Baron of St. Malo".
Read more closely, I wrote that William keeps the title "Duke of Normandy", but I was wondering if Normandy will stay part of England since it would have become de facto a part of England during William's brief reign as king. What if William had granted the duchy to someone else, since he figured he'd be busy being King, or if William granted himself an additional duchy in England proper? I believe a dev said somewhere that provinces can be de facto part of a different kingdom than they are de jure part of, and that this is a possible source of conflict between the respective Kings.
It doesn't matter what Williams does with the Duchy or what happens in England. Normandy is still part of France. To keep Normandy as the King of England, William has to pay homage to the King of France and acknowledge him as his liege lord. If he didn't, it would be an act of rebellion and the French court would be justified in bringing down the wrath of the entire kingdom on William's head.
I agree this is how it should work, but where does it say that's how it will happen in CK2?
Read the developer comments topic stickied at the top of this board:
So King William while being de-facto sovereign is still the de jure vassal of the King of France as the Duke of Normandy, and the developers will talk about the special events they have planned to deal with that later on. The game will molded in a way to make sure lesser lords are properly under the control of their appropriate higher lords via events and the like.
That still doesn't answer what would happen to Normandy if William loses the English crown after holding it for a brief time. It seems like he would remain a vassal of the king of England though, unless the king of France decides to demand that the duchy is restored to France. Which might not be so easy to enforce against the combined Anglo-Norwegian-Norman realm.
Why would William become automatic vassal of England after losing England's crown? If it's anything like CK1, Kings can't vassalize Kings in the peace screen. If William loses the crown of England then he's still William, Duke of Normandy, Vassal of the King of France. I think your confusion lies in the assumption that on assuming the crown of England, the crown of England gets some sort of permanent possession of any Duchy or County William holds at the time. That's not how the feudal system works. Normandy and England are separate possessions legally, and only in a personal union with each other. England as a country gets exactly zero claim over Normandy because of this union.
Under no circumstances will any title change de jure liege in CK2. Period. End of story. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
We don't know how the de facto lieges will work. But if it's anything like CK2 it will depend mostly on who is listed as liege to William's new primary title in the save-game. If he also retains an English Duchy, and that is his new primary title after losing the Kingdom, it's likely to be England. If it's Normandy it's likely to be France. But it's possible that since King William had no liege all his primary Duchies had a liege of ----, which would make him de facto independent. But none of this was certain, even after playing CK1 for years I couldn't tell you the exact rules the game used, and even if I could there's no guarantee the devs are following the same rules today.
Nick
If William ends up with a French and English duchy, the situation wouldn't change much. He now probably has primary liege for his primary title, but just like before he would still need to pay homage to the de jure liege of his secondary title.
Interesting exchange. Yes, the system seems to be that you will pay homage (in what form, we don't quite know yet, but likely taxes, maybe military service) to whoever is liege of the lands you own. So at game start, let's say that you are William, Duke of Normandy. Now the E3 video shows Normandy colored red, and France blue, so I assume that Normandy is not de facto part of France in 1066 (though I would consider modding this). This also explains why Johan (or whoever was playing as Philippe) claims the title Duke of Normandy and proceeds to attack William while ally his levies are across the channel (not bad for a fourteen-year-old kid). Now in any case, William owes homage to Philippe for Normandy, and let's say that Philippe takes the title Duke of Normandy for himself and grants it to his brother Hughes Capet, while in the meantime William is King of England and all the other titles he has there (over which the King of France has no claim of homage). William now owes homage to Hughes for Rouen and St. Malo, because he is still a count in the Duchy of Normandy. But if William is Count of Sussex, Baron of Hastings, let's say, and Harald takes the title King of England, then William still has to pay homage to Harald for Sussex and France for his French lands.
Now let's say that unlike historically William dies and passes all his property to his eldest son Robert Curthose, who is now Robert I of England, Count of Rouen, and Baron of St. Malo. By some really bad fortune, his maternal grandfather and uncles in Flanders all die without heirs, so he inherits Flanders, for which he has to do homage to the King of France. In modern terms, it's like owning land in several countries, while you can only be citizen in one country (generally speaking, I know about dual-citizenship).
One thing that I'm curious about is how do you figure out your liege (and who becomes your vassal) based on inheritance. Take the for-instance of the Duke of Burgundy inheriting Barcelona, one of the few independent duchies at game start. Barcelona does not become part of France, a similar case to the English Normans. But what about the other way around. Let's say that the Duke of Apulia, who is independent at game start, inherits the Duchy of Provence, which is part of the HRE. Now does he become a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor or is he only bound to pay homage for Provence? A cynical strategy in CK1 was to grant land to the heir of an independent duchy or county so that when he or she inherits, that fief will become part of your kingdom. That is how I once made Flanders part of Castile in 1120 and how many of us have been able to make Aquitaine part of whatever kingdom we were playing as (also known as the "Agnes Exploit"). But no more. Aquitaine will remain part of France (in the unmodded version at least) and England, Castile, or whoever inherits it will have to pay homage to France, barring a war of independence as it were (which the devs have mentioned as a possibility).
Now let's say that unlike historically William dies and passes all his property to his eldest son Robert Curthose, who is now Robert I of England, Count of Rouen, and Baron of St. Malo. By some really bad fortune, his maternal grandfather and uncles in Flanders all die without heirs, so he inherits Flanders, for which he has to do homage to the King of France. In modern terms, it's like owning land in several countries, while you can only be citizen in one country (generally speaking, I know about dual-citizenship).
One thing that I'm curious about is how do you figure out your liege (and who becomes your vassal) based on inheritance. Take the for-instance of the Duke of Burgundy inheriting Barcelona, one of the few independent duchies at game start. Barcelona does not become part of France, a similar case to the English Normans. But what about the other way around. Let's say that the Duke of Apulia, who is independent at game start, inherits the Duchy of Provence, which is part of the HRE. Now does he become a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor or is he only bound to pay homage for Provence? A cynical strategy in CK1 was to grant land to the heir of an independent duchy or county so that when he or she inherits, that fief will become part of your kingdom. That is how I once made Flanders part of Castile in 1120 and how many of us have been able to make Aquitaine part of whatever kingdom we were playing as (also known as the "Agnes Exploit"). But no more. Aquitaine will remain part of France (in the unmodded version at least) and England, Castile, or whoever inherits it will have to pay homage to France, barring a war of independence as it were (which the devs have mentioned as a possibility).
It is far from clear exactly what relationship a character will have to his de jure king, which is why I'm asking this question in the first place. I do suspect that many are making the de jure relationship out to be more important than will actually be in game, but only a dev can give a definitive answer.
I would be the first to agree with you. The end of the world is coming in January, and we are sitting around debating what exactly is going to happen, based on the bits of information that we have.
Barcelona is actually interesting since it was de facto independent, but the kings of France had inherited theoretical feudal authority from the times of the Frankish Spanish March. France only relinquished these in 1258. OTOH I'm not sure how a claim on being the rightful liege in disputed areas would be handled.
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Just wanted to take this opportunity to point out that this screenshot Harold has the wrong number, as he was in fact Harold II.
Which got me wondering, is this because:
A) PI haven't got around to entering the number of previous rulers yet (In which case fair enough, just remember to do it before launch).
B) PI actually got it wrong (In which case fair enough, just make sure to triple-check everything before launch).
or
C) Whatever system counts the number of rulers recognises Harold and Harald (as in Harald Harefoot, IE Harold I) as different names (In which case this probably needs some tweaking lest Henry IX be succeeded by Henri I, Arrigo VII and Heinrich V, making it kind of a mistake going to the trouble of including numbers in the first place).
Which got me wondering, is this because:
A) PI haven't got around to entering the number of previous rulers yet (In which case fair enough, just remember to do it before launch).
B) PI actually got it wrong (In which case fair enough, just make sure to triple-check everything before launch).
or
C) Whatever system counts the number of rulers recognises Harold and Harald (as in Harald Harefoot, IE Harold I) as different names (In which case this probably needs some tweaking lest Henry IX be succeeded by Henri I, Arrigo VII and Heinrich V, making it kind of a mistake going to the trouble of including numbers in the first place).
It's been confirmed that Harald I will be Harald II when the game's released. The screen is from when the game was in Alpha and the history files weren't done.
It's also been confirmed that the game won't know Heinrich, Henry, and Henri are the same name, and won't number them properly. This sucks, but on the bright side it shouldn't be an issue in actual gameplay very often because culture changes are rare, and it's unlikely you'll have a long run of Henris to number properly anyway because they seem to be keeping CK's naming system.
Nick
It's also been confirmed that the game won't know Heinrich, Henry, and Henri are the same name, and won't number them properly. This sucks, but on the bright side it shouldn't be an issue in actual gameplay very often because culture changes are rare, and it's unlikely you'll have a long run of Henris to number properly anyway because they seem to be keeping CK's naming system.
Nick
