The only teleportation I'm really concerned is how Littlefinger can bring his whole army to Winterfell without Ramsay's notice.
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[Spoilers] So how much of the latest season is already incorporated into the mod?
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Lol by that logic the Peter Jackson films are more canon than the LOTR books.
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The creator has the rights until they pass that on, whether through death or a sale, and that's why I said that if GRRM died his estate would probably will the rest to a trustworthy writer or publisher to finish the series or at least continue it. And it's the same as any property in multiple mediums; they each have their own canons, which is true, but the source material's canon (or in the case of comics what the publisher/creator deems canon by the stories they release) always trumps the rest. Popularity among viewers has nothing to do with what is and is not canon, only the decision of the rights holders as you said. The only "default" canon is the source material until the rights holder/creator of that source material says otherwise.
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Yeah considering that Ramsey used Theon to take Moat Cailin which is a chokepoint fortress. In fact before that, a very exasperated Roose informed Ramsey that he had to go around Moat Cailin in a rowboat because the Ironborn were holding Moat Cailin at that time preventing him from going overland from the Twins to the North. I don't see how Littlefinger managed to get a cavalry heavy army past Moat Cailin without being noticed.
Gulltown in the Vale is one of the largest ports, Petyr possibly could have moved his army by ship instead of by land.
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Only thing I got from this thread; show-watchers are really serious about their fanfic.
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The show is canon it's just a different canon to the books, an alternate universe if you will/
Calling it fanfic is the same as the user a few pages back calling book fans fanbois.
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Yes, travelling by sea is one of the ways to get there, but not to get there unnoticed.
It was mentioned that Winterfell was far from any water when Theon took it.
Please.
Calling the show "fan-fic" makes you seem very obnoxious, you know that right? Adaption is not "fan-fic". The show is its own internal canon, the books are their own internal canon. Both are just as canon as one another because they're seperate canons.
You're not being extra smart when you act like this. It's the same way elitist fans act with any adaption . Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and now A Song of Ice and Fire. I know. I used to get snobbish over changes to the former two when I was younger. Then I learned that if you just accept the source material and the adaption on their own merits and as seperate canons, you get to enjoy both. And that's just a lot more fun.
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Any given fan-fic is its own internal canon too. That doesn't make its content suitable for use in a work explicitly based on the books' canon. By the very 'different canons' argument you advance, why should the same not be true of the show?
I watched the first two seasons before starting the books. I liked season 1, but I had so many issues with season 2 that I almost abandoned the series entirely. Happily, I ended up trying the books anyway, and it was only when I did that I learned that literally every single one of my major problems with the show were the result of changes from the books. There are plenty of reasons a book reader might be disappointed in this adaptation aside from book purism, and to assume otherwise is frankly just as snobbish as the attitudes you criticize, as it is implicitly assuming away the rationality of anyone who disagrees with your perspective.
As it so happens, I enjoyed season 3 more than I did season 2 despite season 3 being the first season I watched as a book reader, because even though I won't deny that as a reader some of the changes irked me, that didn't stop me from judging the show on its own merits (any more than did the same feeling when I watched the aforementioned LotR and HP adaptations, which I mostly enjoyed despite the changes from their respective source materials). And it was that judgement that led me to label GoT fan-fic after season 5. Not because the show writers keep changing the plot, but because they fundamentally misunderstand (or else ignore) the books' themes, and as a result the show has suffered more and more the more its writers have tried to do their own thing.
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You seem to have misunderstood me. Of course they shouldn't be including show canon in a mod based off the books.
And if you're seriously going to call one of the highest rated shows on television (both critically and commercially) "fanfic", I think you are being very elitist and foolish. Adaption is not fanfic.
Please. I'm well aware that you can have problems that don't stem from book purism. I have my own problems with the show, some of which are changes with the book (like the fact that the show makes all the good characters atheists even if they were religious in the books, as if the showrunners have some personal beef *rolls eyes*).
The problem is that you do very little to defend yourself. Every single problem was a change from the books? EVERY SINGLE ONE? I hate to sound like an ass, but that's pretty much the stereotypical book purist complaint to the letter. Mind you, a lot of it gets into "your mileage may vary": something you think is a problem might actually be appealing to other people. A bunch of people loved season 2 (myself included) and I don't think that's because they're stupid plebians.
Themes change. Plot points change. Characters change. That's what happens in adaption. There are changes. Sometimes, they make it a better story and sometimes they make it a worse story. A lot of the time, it's neutral: a change to make the story fit a different format. Some people struggle with this. I do too sometimes.
Anyways, I'm not here to debate the merits of the show or the books. I'm here because elitism of any kind infuriates me, and because calling adaption "fan fic" is dishonest, factually incorrect, and unnecessarily provocative.
(PS: If your biggest problem with the later seasons is that they try to do their own thing, the only person you have to blame is Martin himself. When you don't have source material, you kind of have to do your own thing. In any case, Battle of the Basterds and Winds of Winter were amazing so I'm not sure how right this assertion is.)
Peace out, folks.
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Adaptations become fanfic when they stop adapting the source materiel and start trying to write their own version of the story. The size of a fanfiction story's fanbase or it's budget don't change what it is. If anything you're being elitist against fanfiction.
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Ah, so I see we're now playing the "change the definition of terms so something can fit into a category it doesn't fit into" game.
Please don't do that. It's really annoying and disingenuous.
1. Fanfiction is unauthorized. Adaptation is either authorized or based on something freely available (Bible, Shakespeare, etc.)
2. Fanfiction is made not for profit.
3. Even if the definition of fanfic was as broad as you want it to be, we don't know how much of season 6's plot is original until Winds of Winter is released.
4. Changes in an adaptation happen and they aren't fanfiction. Changes to the tail end of a story in adaptation are actually relatively common.
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Fair enough. My mistake.
I know it's not technically fanfic. I use the label to make a point, not because I think it's literally true. More on what that point is shortly.
I said every major problem. Not every minute issue, but the stuff that was making me seriously ask myself whether I wanted to keep watching. Before reading the books, mind you. Yes, they all turned out to be changes from the books, but I hadn't known that at the time, so I'm not sure how you think I could have possibly had book purism as a motive for my dislike.
Absolutely. It would be easy to dismiss show-lovers as, as you put it, 'stupid plebians', but it would also be demonstrably incorrect. I'll admit I don't understand how the more involved viewers continue to like it, but I consider that lack of understanding my failing, not theirs. Ultimately I think it comes down to valuing different things in fiction - a not uncommon thing I've observed is for someone to write out a list of their issues with the show that would be more than enough to constitute a deal-breaker for me, and yet conclude by saying something along the lines of 'but despite all this, the show is still very good'. Sure, it can be frustrating, but I don't begrudge GoT-lovers what they get from the show.
Plot points change. Characters change. But you spoke of Harry Potter (warning: minor Harry Potter spoilers ahead). Imagine watching the film adaptation of the first book for the first time. Harry Potter is lying in the infirmary asking Dumbledore why it was that Quirrel couldn't touch him. Dumbledore smiles, and explains that Harry was protected by the hate that Lily Potter felt for Voldemort, that passed to Harry when Lily sacrificed herself for that hate.
That is what I mean when I talk about themes. If the GoT writers think they have to change characters or plot points to tell a story more suitable for television, fine. But change the fundamental ideas that the story is based on, and any relationship to the source material becomes superficial in an instant. That is why I call GoT fan fiction. That is why I would call GoT fan fiction even if I thought that it was otherwise a good show. And I'd enjoy it in such a case, just as I've enjoyed good fan fiction of other works. Sadly, I don't consider GoT to be a good show even judged on its own merits.
I didn't say that was my problem with the later seasons. I merely pointed out the correlation - the show has gotten worse the more they writers have done their own thing. And I don't think it's because that's an intrinsically bad approach, but because in doing so they necessarily lose much of what was great about the source material and, being (in my view) less than stellar writers themselves, are unable to generate greatness of their own to replace it with.
Regarding the two episodes you mentioned: They were somewhat fun to watch, in the moment. But even in the moment, there are all these niggling issues in the back of my mind.
Why are the smallfolk not up in arms at the center of religious authority literally going up in flames? Why are they handwaving away Sansa's claim? Why is no one bringing up Bran's claim, since Jon and Sansa know that he's alive? Why is Sansa withholding valuable intelligence from Jon? This whole battle is predicated on the main characters being morons. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Theme is another part of story, and any point of story can be liable to change in an adaptation. There have been adaptations that actually change the themes of the original work not only more drastically, but also in a way that is much more clearly deliberate.
I don't want to get into a debate about the themes of GoT, but I don't think making modifications to theme makes the show fan fic.
1. Fear, for one. People would still be in shock after such an event. Also, we don't really see the reaction of the small folk much in the episode. They could be up in arms, but more than likely people are either still clearing the rubble or piss scared of their new Queen.
2. They didn't handwave it away. Sansa doesn't want the job, and Jon has earned a huge amount of prestige. Sansa is still seen as that one daughter of Ned who's been through the trauma cogna line, and Bran is MIA. In any case, Bran's the three eyed raven and probably isn't interested either.
3. Sansa doesn't tell Jon about the Knights because she's worried he won't approve. This seemed pretty obvious to me.
2. They didn't handwave it away. Sansa doesn't want the job, and Jon has earned a huge amount of prestige. Sansa is still seen as that one daughter of Ned who's been through the trauma cogna line, and Bran is MIA. In any case, Bran's the three eyed raven and probably isn't interested either.
3. Sansa doesn't tell Jon about the Knights because she's worried he won't approve. This seemed pretty obvious to me.
I think that what the show's done to theme goes far beyond 'modifications', but in any case I see little point in continuing this particular line of discussion. You've made your point, I've made mine, and I don't see either of us being convinced by the other (nor am I sure of the extent to which we actually disagree, since I don't think 'is the show fan fiction' means the same thing to you as it does to me, or vice versa).
1. Eh. I'd rather not debate this until I've seen what comes of it next season. In any case, we shouldn't have to, because if the reaction of the smallfolk is going to be important next season then we should have been shown something to foreshadow that, even if it were just a few seconds of some peasants attacking some goldcloaks before Cersei's coronation, or something similar. And if it's not, then why the hell not? And I lean towards the latter, because the show has a terrible track record of portraying the smallfolk as having any sort of agency. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
2. None of the Northern lords even mentioned it, though. Nor did Sansa or Jon even mention Bran. And whatever Renly may have wanted people to believe, the laws of succession matter to these societies. Bastardy matters. And Jon won prestige with... what, exactly? Davos was the closest thing Jon's army had to a commander in TBoB. All Jon did was nearly get himself and everyone that followed him killed. Even for this sort of martial culture, that's a stretch. And, again, no one even mentioned this fact. Hell, even Jon didn't mention it, to express regret, anger, shame, anything.
3. He was going to find out when the army arrived anyway. I guess she was hoping that he'd be more understanding after her army won him 'his' campaign? So the way we're supposed to rationalize this is that she knowingly risked her life, her brother's life, and the lives of everyone following them to avoid Jon's disapproval? What was it I was saying about this whole battle being predicated on the main characters being morons, again?
2. None of the Northern lords even mentioned it, though. Nor did Sansa or Jon even mention Bran. And whatever Renly may have wanted people to believe, the laws of succession matter to these societies. Bastardy matters. And Jon won prestige with... what, exactly? Davos was the closest thing Jon's army had to a commander in TBoB. All Jon did was nearly get himself and everyone that followed him killed. Even for this sort of martial culture, that's a stretch. And, again, no one even mentioned this fact. Hell, even Jon didn't mention it, to express regret, anger, shame, anything.
3. He was going to find out when the army arrived anyway. I guess she was hoping that he'd be more understanding after her army won him 'his' campaign? So the way we're supposed to rationalize this is that she knowingly risked her life, her brother's life, and the lives of everyone following them to avoid Jon's disapproval? What was it I was saying about this whole battle being predicated on the main characters being morons, again?
I brought those points up as examples. There are countless more. And sure, you can twist yourself in knots rationalizing everything, but most of the time those rationalizations raise more questions than answers, or else come with further implications which inevitably will never actually be followed up on in the show. At least, that's the way I see it. TWOW was probably my favourite episode of the season (though I do recall kinda liking episode... 2, I think), and it still rang hollow on all but the most superficial level. If you're still enjoying the show, more power to you. Unfortunately, plenty of us can't share your enthusiasm, for much more diverse reasons than simple book snobbery.
1. I don't think we need another thing to show that Cersei is tyrant who is hated by the people. The mutual hatred between her and the smallfolk is already an established fact in the show. She blew up a chunk of the city, I think we can assume people are afraid.
2. This succession issue is a mountain out of a molehill. Bran's claim? Bran is missing, nobody has a clue where he is, and he's likely presumed dead. Are any of the lords really going to say "hey, we should wait indefinitely for a possibly dead cripple to show up"? BTW, to what extent succession even applies in this case is debatable. They're resurrecting the Kingdom of the North, which is different from direct inheritance. They crown Jon their king because he's become a legend: the warrior who defended the Wall against the Wildling Army, who slew White Walkers at Hardhome, who liberated the North from the hated Boltons. Of course, the truth is a lot more humble, but once you've become a legend the truth fades away. This has happened a ton in real history.
3. You misunderstand. Either Sansa didn't know for sure they were coming, or she did know and kept quiet because she thought Jon wouldn't allow the alliance with slimy Littlefinger. Both are pretty reasonable. If I recall there was some dialogue in S6E10 on this.
2. This succession issue is a mountain out of a molehill. Bran's claim? Bran is missing, nobody has a clue where he is, and he's likely presumed dead. Are any of the lords really going to say "hey, we should wait indefinitely for a possibly dead cripple to show up"? BTW, to what extent succession even applies in this case is debatable. They're resurrecting the Kingdom of the North, which is different from direct inheritance. They crown Jon their king because he's become a legend: the warrior who defended the Wall against the Wildling Army, who slew White Walkers at Hardhome, who liberated the North from the hated Boltons. Of course, the truth is a lot more humble, but once you've become a legend the truth fades away. This has happened a ton in real history.
3. You misunderstand. Either Sansa didn't know for sure they were coming, or she did know and kept quiet because she thought Jon wouldn't allow the alliance with slimy Littlefinger. Both are pretty reasonable. If I recall there was some dialogue in S6E10 on this.
One of my pet peeves when it comes to story critique is when people complain about a story asking them to come to a logical conclusion rather than explicitly showing it. Coming to these logical conclusions isn't "twisting oneself in knots", you just have to accept that stories don't show you everything and leave some room for implication. You say there are countless more, and that any rationalization opens up new problems, but at a certain point, this stops being reasonable criticism and turns into absurd nitpicking. Every event in the world is explained by a thousand other events in the world, and a work of fiction doesn't have time to explicitly explain every one of them.
I'm not blind to the problems with the show, I have my own problems, but people have a tendency to be a lot more caustic about things they dislike. Some people are blinded by love, yes, others are blinded by hate. If you dislike a work, then some of your criticisms will inevitably seem shallow to somebody who likes it. If you like a work, some of your praise will inevitably seem shallow to someone who dislikes it. It's how I've realized the world works.
1. Well, we'll see next season whether anything comes of it.
2. I have no issue with the northern lords not bringing up Bran. My issue is with Jon and Sansa not doing so, especially Jon, who knows that Bran made it at least as far as the wall on some sort of important mission. It's not like there's no where it would have seemed natural, either - that conversation they had in private about how should get Winterfell would have been the perfect time, to the extent that it's frankly weird that neither mentioned him there.
3. Yes, the S6E10 dialogue was (paraphrased) Sansa: "Sorry I didn't tell you." Jon: "It's ok." No explanation was given. And sure, Sansa might not have been sure that LF was coming. That he MIGHT be is still extremely valuable information. At the very least it's a strong argument in favor of delaying the attack, which is exactly what she was trying to convince him to do. And she has no reason to think that Jon would have a problem with LF. The most Jon is likely to know about LF is 'that guy who once fought a duel over Catelyn and recently married her sister' (if even that), and Sansa could spin it however she wanted.
2. I have no issue with the northern lords not bringing up Bran. My issue is with Jon and Sansa not doing so, especially Jon, who knows that Bran made it at least as far as the wall on some sort of important mission. It's not like there's no where it would have seemed natural, either - that conversation they had in private about how should get Winterfell would have been the perfect time, to the extent that it's frankly weird that neither mentioned him there.
3. Yes, the S6E10 dialogue was (paraphrased) Sansa: "Sorry I didn't tell you." Jon: "It's ok." No explanation was given. And sure, Sansa might not have been sure that LF was coming. That he MIGHT be is still extremely valuable information. At the very least it's a strong argument in favor of delaying the attack, which is exactly what she was trying to convince him to do. And she has no reason to think that Jon would have a problem with LF. The most Jon is likely to know about LF is 'that guy who once fought a duel over Catelyn and recently married her sister' (if even that), and Sansa could spin it however she wanted.
I'll grant you, points 1 and 2 aren't that big. Point 3 is, and I don't find your arguments on that front convincing. Even so, I think I chose these examples poorly. My biggest issues with the show are not about plot, they are about theme and character (though I definitely have some major plot-based issues too). The examples I gave were all plot-based, primarily because such are much easier to summarize (and also because I was limited to S6E9 and S6E10).
If you want to continue the discussion, I will, but I'm not sure how fruitful it would be. All else equal I'm inclined to just let this thread die. Up to you.
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It absolutely is nitpicking, when people do nothing but bitch and moan about the TV writers, who but for a few issues have delivered an excellent show. Clearly you've never spent anytime over on westeros.org. It's an entire fanboi website of alleged fans of the series that do nothing but tear down the show.
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