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I drew up a map with some preliminary changes I think would add a lot to the playability and the ability to add new revolter nations and ease the cultural construction of areas. One problem I noticed is the line I drew to create Utica is too far to the west, but that can be easily fixed. I've drawn this up from historical maps from the time period (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/). Egypt would be in for a major renovation, consisting of basically the Greek religion and cultural province of Alexandria, Kyrene and Barka, while the provinces of Paraitonion, Memphis, Ammonium, Oxyrynchos, Hibis, Thebai, Pselchis and Pelousion would be native Egyptian religion and culture. Sinai would be another Nabatean barbarian province, and Nubia would either be a small kingdom or a dangerous horde-producing province. The egyptians would hence be able to colonize much of what is present day western Egypt and Eastern Libya, as well as the eastern desert regions along the Red Sea, making things a bit more dangerous for them in terms of barbarian invasions.

Another split along the Libyan coast would reflect that the settlements really didn't extend inland, and make colonization of the interior much more difficult. An expanded Phoenicia and Israel would ensure these cultures/religions would survive a bit longer, in fact in my own mod game I've already created a Syrian culture which replaced much of the Phoenician and Assyrian in this region. Antioch would be greek in culture and religion, while Halab (Aleppo) would be native Syrian in culture and religion.

Italy would have several more provinces and would better reflect the fact that it is only recently unified by the Romans, with the very real possibility existing that Samnite, Etruscan, Oscian or Greek revolter nations could appear here if the Romans lose their grip on power. Similarly the other Phoenician colonies in North Africa (like Utica) often resented Carthaginian dominance, so we should make revolter nations there possible as well. Ideally I'd like to develop my own mod to the point where nearly any province might gain some sort of independence.

I didn't mark it here but I've already altered the cultures in Mesopotamia and added a new religion, mesopotamian_pantheon, under the semitic pantheon, as well as removed the Egyptian pantheon from the Hellenistic one to its own grouping. I think this will make it more interesting for the Ptolemies and could create events to allow them to either impose Greek gods or work to actively fuse the two. The Greeks in Egypt really were foreign rulers, and no one until Cleopatra even bothered to learn the native language. The idea of a resurgent native Egyptian nation revolting is definitely something I want possible.

As for Greece, bringing in more island territories makes sense right now, but should for instance, a separate Attica or a split up Thessaly or a Peloponnese with four provinces be considered? My biggest dislike about the game thus far is that once you reach a few hundred years into the game, there are really only two or three nations that are any sort of threat to you, I would like to see a lot more nations out there, a lot more difficulty holding together a large empire in the early stages, a lot more resentment from subject peoples, a lot more cultures which cause that resentment, and slower transformation of culture and religion tied much more to civilization level of the province.


 
bacchus451 said:
Here's one province that I personally would like to see added, as it is essentially my hometown :p

Utica.jpg


Utica. It's a town north-northwest of Carthage that sided with Rome during the Third Punic War. That would also be an event that could be written, I think, where if you choose the Third Punic War scenario Utica is a playable nation allied with Rome.
Sorry, but I believe that Utica would be far too small the implement. It wasn't a province was it?

However the link with the Roman maps is really useful, thanks.
 
Eshmunazar said:
I drew up a map with some preliminary changes I think would add a lot to the playability and the ability to add new revolter nations and ease the cultural construction of areas. One problem I noticed is the line I drew to create Utica is too far to the west, but that can be easily fixed. I've drawn this up from historical maps from the time period (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/). Egypt would be in for a major renovation, consisting of basically the Greek religion and cultural province of Alexandria, Kyrene and Barka, while the provinces of Paraitonion, Memphis, Ammonium, Oxyrynchos, Hibis, Thebai, Pselchis and Pelousion would be native Egyptian religion and culture. Sinai would be another Nabatean barbarian province, and Nubia would either be a small kingdom or a dangerous horde-producing province. The egyptians would hence be able to colonize much of what is present day western Egypt and Eastern Libya, as well as the eastern desert regions along the Red Sea, making things a bit more dangerous for them in terms of barbarian invasions.

Another split along the Libyan coast would reflect that the settlements really didn't extend inland, and make colonization of the interior much more difficult. An expanded Phoenicia and Israel would ensure these cultures/religions would survive a bit longer, in fact in my own mod game I've already created a Syrian culture which replaced much of the Phoenician and Assyrian in this region. Antioch would be greek in culture and religion, while Halab (Aleppo) would be native Syrian in culture and religion.

Italy would have several more provinces and would better reflect the fact that it is only recently unified by the Romans, with the very real possibility existing that Samnite, Etruscan, Oscian or Greek revolter nations could appear here if the Romans lose their grip on power. Similarly the other Phoenician colonies in North Africa (like Utica) often resented Carthaginian dominance, so we should make revolter nations there possible as well. Ideally I'd like to develop my own mod to the point where nearly any province might gain some sort of independence.

I didn't mark it here but I've already altered the cultures in Mesopotamia and added a new religion, mesopotamian_pantheon, under the semitic pantheon, as well as removed the Egyptian pantheon from the Hellenistic one to its own grouping. I think this will make it more interesting for the Ptolemies and could create events to allow them to either impose Greek gods or work to actively fuse the two. The Greeks in Egypt really were foreign rulers, and no one until Cleopatra even bothered to learn the native language. The idea of a resurgent native Egyptian nation revolting is definitely something I want possible.

As for Greece, bringing in more island territories makes sense right now, but should for instance, a separate Attica or a split up Thessaly or a Peloponnese with four provinces be considered? My biggest dislike about the game thus far is that once you reach a few hundred years into the game, there are really only two or three nations that are any sort of threat to you, I would like to see a lot more nations out there, a lot more difficulty holding together a large empire in the early stages, a lot more resentment from subject peoples, a lot more cultures which cause that resentment, and slower transformation of culture and religion tied much more to civilization level of the province.


Well, your suggestions seems quite reasonable. I think we can implement a lot of them. The new borders do look realistic and the provinces remain of reasonable size.
 
I need some support to do this however, but we could divide the work into 3 regions according to the suggestions made by Eshmunazar (see picture previous post):

1- Italy and Greece
2- Egypt
3- Seleucia

I can do the first (Italy and Greece). Are there any skilled volunteers to do the other parts or do people have any complaints about the made suggestions?
 
Van Diemen said:
Well, your suggestions seems quite reasonable. I think we can implement a lot of them. The new borders do look realistic and the provinces remain of reasonable size.

I can put together the files for the individual provinces if you can do the map work, it should be pretty simple. We can start on a regional basis based on which areas need the most work, I'd say Egypt, Judea/Syria, Italy, Greece, Libyan coast, Mesopotamia, Carthage area, Numidia in the order of needing the most work to the least.

I would say that we might also consider really revamping the way Greece proper is put together, not just new islands but really seeing how small a viable province can be. The very fact that these leagues are composed of one province each makes it kind of dull. They should have all kinds of events for internal relations and when they conquer new areas should free new cities and incorporate them rather than just annexing them like an empire.
 
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Here is a prospective map I created for Greece.



Based off of historical maps of the region. None of these provinces except for Corcyra is smaller than Malta, while Malta is currently the smallest province of all, I figured it best to keep it to this limit. This would allow the creation of real leagues and true internal politics among the Greek states. Anyone wishing to take over the area would have to deal with their thorny desire for independence and their traditional rights. Much like the Holy Roman Empire in EU3 Magna Mundi mod, a series of events to make these regions much less likely to be successfully incorporated into other people's empires would be possible. Even the Romans were cautious about truly incorporating these Greek states into their empire, most remained functionally independent until the final third of the period Rome covers.

This would also allow mods to be made covering earlier periods such as the Peloponnesian Wars with a depth that would be impossible with the current map. Much like the densely-packed Dutch/German provinces in EU3, this would be the most closely packed group of provinces in Rome. What do you think?
 
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This is definitely shaping up to be a must-have, I can't wait for you guys to get it together. I would offer my help but I am completely useless when it comes to this, I think.

Also, Utica was a city but it was a pretty big, important one. Before the Third Punic War is a bustling Mediterranean harbor full of trade, but after the Third Punic War Rome decided to appoint it capital of the new province of Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utica,_Tunisia
 
bacchus451 said:
Another little something I noticed. After reading a bit more on some of the countries in the game, it appears that Magna Graecia should start with Syracusae, not Epirus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse,_Italy

"...Syracuse was allied with Sparta and Corinth, exorting influence over the entire Magna Grecia area of which it was the most important city..."
Thank you. I already thought about that one, but could not find enough reference to back it up. Will have to be changed.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus#Ruler_of_Sicily

Wikipedia said:
In 278 BC (starting year), Pyrrhus received two offers simultaneously. The Greek cities in Sicily asked him to come and drive out Carthage, which along with Rome was one of the two great powers of the Western Mediterranean. At the same time, the Macedonians, whose King Ceraunus had been killed by invading Gauls, asked Pyrrhus to ascend the throne of Macedon. Pyrrhus decided that Sicily offered him a greater opportunity, and transferred his army there.

Seems like Pyrrhus should have control of both Messana and Syracuse at the moment the game begins if they had offered him the control, but he quickly lost their support. Magna Grecia in this map mod would also consist of Oenotria linking Bruttium with Tarentum. What is more interesting is that 4 years after the game starts Pyrrhus actually takes over Macedonia altogether for two years, which seems to be represented with a control over the north rather than an outright annexation of all of Macedonia.
 
Eshmunazar said:
This would also allow mods to be made covering earlier periods such as the Peloponnesian Wars with a depth that would be impossible with the current map. Much like the densely-packed Dutch/German provinces in EU3, this would be the most closely packed group of provinces in Rome. What do you think?
Well, I think we can add these provinces, however adding names and such will prove difficult, since the states are becoming even smaller. Furthermore I would say that we indeed split-up the work. Someone doing the map part (I guess that would be me) and the other doing the history\province .txt files with the names, cultures, religions, population, city and regional names, tradegoods, ownership and ownership changes (for the entire timeframe). However if anyone wants to join in to do some work also I would gladly accept it. I would like to point out however that modding the map isn't really that difficult. I could not mod the map 2 days ago and now I can! If you like to learn you could visit this webpage, although it is for EUIII the principle is the same.
 
I have no problem modifying the text files, I'm a classical history student and that sort of thing is what I enjoy, graphical work isn't really my forte. I have good knowledge of a ton of useful sites full of cultural info, names, religious information. One thing that would be nice to have is someone who could whip up some flags/shields as I imagine we're going to have a lot more prospective nations which will require some new graphics. Since most of these nations have no recorded flags or symbols, it'll mostly be just design work to create something that looks appropriate I'd imagine.
 
Well, that seems ok with me. I will do the map, while you concentrate on the borders and stats of the provinces. I must say that your proposed borders do look great and with not having myself doing some research is really a blessing. It's the most frustrating bit for me, because I like to do things right, but don't have the knowledge and resources and would not like any historian to argue that what I did was wrong. I have already added the correct provinces of Italy. So, you could begin in making the province .txt files for the following provinces (please add also a map with an indication were the port and city should be). Furthermore I expect that when a province already bears a name in the game that one is already done (except for city, text and unit direction reassigning if needed).

Provinces ready for stats:
- Oenotria (272)
- Venucia (273)
- Latium (274) (maybe Rome too in case of a pop split)
- Etruria (275) (thus too Apuani, with Apuani being orginally province Etruria (90))
- Karalis (276) (thus too Tharros, with Tharros being orginally province Sardinia (102))
- Utica (277)
 
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The alterations to Italy I am absolutely certain about, and the same with those in Greece if you think the small provinces are feasible then those can be introduced as well. Utica needs to be readjusted, in fact I would hold off on North Africa/Libya until I can take a closer look at the set up of Phoenician colonies and native Numidian tribal areas. Egypt should be good to go, all the way west to Cyrenaicia, as should the altered Syria/Judea area. No changes yet to anywhere else on the map I'd say.

I'll start marking the positions of the harbors on maps and I assume you can thus turn that into new harbor/position markings for those provinces? Not only the new provinces but the old ones they may be split out of will have to have their harbors and unit positions readjusted, as old positions might now be located in entirely different provinces.
 
Eshmunazar said:
I'll start marking the positions of the harbors on maps and I assume you can thus turn that into new harbor/position markings for those provinces? Not only the new provinces but the old ones they may be split out of will have to have their harbors and unit positions readjusted, as old positions might now be located in entirely different provinces.
That would be good enough. Just mark them on the map with a nice dot (red for port, black for main city), the rest will be my task of fitting them in.
 
Eshmunazar said:
Here are ports (red) and cities (black) for Italy, Egypt



and Greece



Time for bed!
Thank you very much. I will work on the Italian provinces to have them ready this weekend (maybe even tomorrow). Take a good rest and good luck with the province stats.
 
Lol, some of those provinces in Greece, if implemented, are going to be awfully small. Even, perhaps, prohibitively so.
 
battlecry said:
Lol, some of those provinces in Greece, if implemented, are going to be awfully small. Even, perhaps, prohibitively so.
Yes, I still need to do these, but don't be afraid I will make them nice or do nothing with them at all if they are far too small (and begin to look messy)