Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg - Global Alternate History Mod for HOI2

[Berlichingen]

What? So much for the 1848 Revolution, the 1868 near-revolution, the October 1918 declarations, Karolyi being asked to be relieved of his oath to the Emperor and it being granted. To say that Hungarians would want to stay in the A-H, because they are in it, is pretty circular logic.

 

[Passivocalia]

New Italian Federation minister

I neglected someone who apparently played a major financial role in the historical Holy See and who has the potential to play a greater one in a Papal-lead Italian Federation:

Bernardino Nogara
Armaments Minister: Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Nogara was the first non-Roman to assume control of the Vatican's finances. This son of Milan came to the job with a number of international contacts and continued to view the diplomatic and economic spheres as one and the same. The Vatican was the center of a global Church. It should thrive in financial markets worldwide. Nogara's commercial activity has several hallmarks: the appointment of family to key posts in Vatican offices (his brother Bartolomeo ran the Vatican Museums); the installation of Milanese colleagues on boards of corporations where the Vatican had a significant or controlling stake (especially in South America); and the handling of sensitive information through use of the diplomatic pouch, a procedure that proved to be useless during the Second World War, when allied intercepts were routine. For his Italian loyalties during the war, Nogara was often placed in a precarious position with Pius XII, to say nothing of the allied forces, who tracked his activities with great vigilance. Pollard notes that Nogara's impact on Vatican financial matters has had the unavoidable stamp of his successes for all future achievements. "The 'wind from the North,' as Italians describe influences from Milan and the other financial centers, had brought about a permanent change in Vatican financial culture and practice that would survive even Nogara's death in 1958. Nogara had finally inserted the Church into the structures of international capitalism" (215).

As a Milanese layman who has no qualms with working with a Papal government, I think this fellow is ideal. He historically lasted until 1953, so he should be a potential candidate throughout the game's entirety (unless some violent revolution occurs, or something). His historical Italian loyalties can make him a good fascist here. In my Vatican Expansion for the standard game, I'm going to make him *the* Laissez-Faire Armaments Minister for the Holy See, editing the traits I had already assigned for those other potential armaments ministers:

Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli (eliminated to avoid redundancy)
Francesco Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani (changed to Administrative Genius)
Giovanni Montini (changed to Administrative Genius)

Of course, you may choose to eliminate most of the Vatican armaments ministers altogether, if you feel you have sufficient civilians. They aren't even really administrative geniuses in the sense that the game means; it just fits their characters best.

Also, while we're on the topic of minister traits... I think earlier I suggested that Tisserant be a Silent Workhorse HoG, but he's really more of a Flamboyant Tough Guy. Also, for your scenario, he's probably better left as a potential French (or French colonial) minister in the case of a pro-clerical government, just as you decided Tiso would be better left in Slovakia.

 

[Arilou]

Why would Hungary have a Habsburg king, do any of you understand how much hungarians were sick and tired of Austrian rule and by the 1930s would defiantely be wanting to throw off the remains of the corrupt Habsburg rule.

As a kind of compromise, I meant. Hungary gets her independence, the Habsburgs get to keep "their" guy on the throne. Or else things may get ugly.

To say that Hungarians would want to stay in the A-H, because they are in it, is pretty circular logic.

A) In this situation they wouldn't WANT to stay. Let's put it like this: If the options were war or independence under a habsburg monarch, what would they chose? I think at least some would be willing to get out of there without a war, no?

B) If Hungary wants out they'll have to fight for it. Simple as that.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

Not sure a detailed description of socialist 'Egemonia' would be appropriate for a country description and a brief mention of it is hard to do without having to explain it. Still, I'll alter the description to include Antonio himself and see how it looks then.


Yeah, province control was a big reason why I hesitated too. I'll try and do a few events for Canadian involvement then.

Many thanks - very interested to see how you get on with this! It might be an idea to model some of the Candian land occupation events on the regional crisis events in 'All the Russias', as they already do something quite similar....

 

[Sarmatia1871]

regarding flanders and wallonien (were these the states which make up pre war belgium?

With the post of Belgian(sp???) guy i think there would be some fun things to do. With Germany possibly breaking apart, why don't you make germany release them because they have other troubles to deal with, and they will make war over the piece of land they got? When one side finally gained the upperhand, then they both would re-unite and create a Belgium.
Just a thought, however i do not believe that belgian soldiers would fight against their own. However, with extremist leaders, maybe they would have too. Yeah why not don't you make an event in which the people of Belgium refuse to fight against themselves? Just a thought for more trouble in europe

All very possible - Although you definitely have to remember that France next door isn't really that likely to look on in an uninterested manner on any sort of Belgian civil war!

I may put this to some sort of public vote, seeing how there are already BEL, FLA and WLL tags, and I'm not particularly decided either way - should Flanders and Wallonia be united into one single German puppet at the game start (as in the current situation...), or should there be two?

 

[Sarmatia1871]

after playing the alpha for a while, i noticed a few things.

-Ausgleich needs some sort of peace treaty, espec. if germany intervenes. In a recent game, germany ended up annexing all of Hungary. Maybe if Austria goes to war with hungery, they should gain cores on the territory, so they recieve it. Then after the war, it can all be sorted out.

-This is more a balance problem, i find that the USA always wins the civil war because the CSA dows TEX, and TEX dows USA. Maybe the event causing the CSA dow should change, or maybe TEX should be programmed not to dow the U.S if its in a war with CSA.

-Spice up california a little, giving them more than 1 minister for most posts, and some events for choosing leadership. Maybe add some IC, because as it stands, Cal is only important because it prevents the USA from attacking other revolters from the west.

-Tinker with the requirements for releasing some nations. For example, as France i was unable to release Italian Fed, even though i had all of its territory from before the war.

Other than these stupid concerns, its a blast. Great job, and i can't wait to see what you do.

Many thanks - to answer questions in order....

* Yep, peace treaty events being planned (they are actually outlined at the bottom of the 'Ausgleich.txt' events file!).

* True - troop numbers, tech-teams, leaders and AIs need to be adjusted quite siginificantly for the sake of gameplay in the US Civil War - so keep detailed observations on this coming in!

* Being done! Many Californian ministers have been found by T-Hiddemen a few pages back, and just need to be implemented.

* The 'Revolt.txt' definitely needs a complete overhaul to reflect the new countries, so will be added to the todo list.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

One Hungary skin, hope you like it . . .
...

Ooooh, thank you! This is good!

 

[Sarmatia1871]

I neglected someone who apparently played a major financial role in the historical Holy See and who has the potential to play a greater one in a Papal-lead Italian Federation:
...
Also, while we're on the topic of minister traits... I think earlier I suggested that Tisserant be a Silent Workhorse HoG, but he's really more of a Flamboyant Tough Guy. Also, for your scenario, he's probably better left as a potential French (or French colonial) minister in the case of a pro-clerical government, just as you decided Tiso would be better left in Slovakia.

Cool - these can all be added quite easily!

 

[Sarmatia1871]

A lot of this is already modelled in the ausgleich events: There's a huge risk something will go "Kaboom!" in the Balkans.

That said, there should probably be an option for Hungary going it's own way but with a Habsburg king...

Yep true, the Ausgleich events already have these provisions, and also the ability to have a non-puppet Hungary with Otto still as Head of State - I think the option is called 'end Dualism' or 'independence with personal union.' I actually think that this is actually one of the more likely ends to the whole chain...

I actually think that general ideas about the doom of Austria-Hungary, the total resentment of all the consituent nationalities, and the inevitability of its collapse into national states are a bit overstated. You've got to remember that up until the First World War, there was no significant political group in the monarchy which actually wanted its disintegration. The closest you'd get to this would be various Pan-Germanists or pan-Slavists (and also some Romanian irredentists), who wanted to join up with other existing states - and even these weren't really mass movements! Pretty much everyone who could be called a 'nationalist' generally wanted to bolster the position of their own group within the monarchy, rather than break the whole thing up into a number of vulnerable states

The case of Hungary is actually extremely interesting, as although it was involved in a number of 'national' struggles over the course of the 19th c., these were actually generally conducted in a context of reclaiming the historic rights of the Kingdom of Hungary, of which the Head of the House of Habsburg was still the legitimate King. Both the 1848 and 1868 conflicts were fought with this sort of aim in mind, and even though there was a Republic established briefly after the First World War, Horthy still found it convenient to rule officially as the 'Regent' for the legitimate Habsburg King throughout the 1920s and '30s.

You've got to remember that Otto I isn't just the Habsburg/Austrian oppressor - he is still the rightful King of Hungary, and I would see Hungarian nationalists as having absolutely no problem, possibly even favouring, the solution of a complete end of the limited Dualist political ties binding the two states of Austria and Hungary together (which in real life only amounted to a common customs, foreign and defence policy....), while keeping Otto as King of Hungary in a new political constitution (but in a role totally seperate from his other capacities as Emperor of Austria, King of Bohemia, Galicia, Lodomeria, Jerusalem, etc....). This may actually be a very good solution for radical Magyar nationalists, particularly if Otto continues to live in Vienna, as it would mean that they would have their powerless figurehead to keep the conservatives and legitimists happy, while still able to follow a totally independant domestic and foreign policy.

Another issue is the general 'political system' in this timeline - as there are actually no stable non-socialist Republics, any conservative or national movement, particularly one with ties to Germany, is going to be a bit reluctant to depose its Monarch -> This would be seen as something very strange and destabilising...

 

[Jebus]

I doubt many Belgians would want to reunite Flanders and Wallonia if it happenned to break apart.

Very, very true. Especially with the Belgian king gone, as it seems to be in this timeline, I wouldn't see anything holding Flanders and Wallonia together anymore.

Also, I've done some more checking, and it seems to be that having two different states would be rather... sad for wallonia. After all, they've had most of their provinces annexed by Germany, and they are only left with Namur! A cilil war wouldn't last very long... But a civil war seems to be rather odd at any rate, because I don't see what they would fight for in the first place.

*If* you would want a low-countries war, the Verdinaso route -with national socialist trying to unite Flanders and the Dutchies - would seem much more interesting. After all, vanilla Flanders and vanilla Dutchiestan have about the same IC...

I could search for some ministers, but it probably won't be easy. I'll do it when I have the time/will for it.

 

[Sarmatia1871]

Very, very true. Especially with the Belgian king gone, as it seems to be in this timeline, I wouldn't see anything holding Flanders and Wallonia together anymore.

Also, I've done some more checking, and it seems to be that having two different states would be rather... sad for wallonia. After all, they've had most of their provinces annexed by Germany, and they are only left with Namur! A cilil war wouldn't last very long... But a civil war seems to be rather odd at any rate, because I don't see what they would fight for in the first place.

*If* you would want a low-countries war, the Verdinaso route -with national socialist trying to unite Flanders and the Dutchies - would seem much more interesting. After all, vanilla Flanders and vanilla Dutchiestan have about the same IC...

I could search for some ministers, but it probably won't be easy. I'll do it when I have the time/will for it.

Yes, looking over the map, Wallonia wouldn't really be particularly viable, and if there are too many minor countries there might be an MDS-style slowdown...

The Diets Republic idea for a radical expansionist Flanders is probably the best idea. And it wouldn't neccessarily require a war - with a potentially expansionist France across the border, there would be some justification for both Flanders and the Netherlands to sink their differences and unite for security if Germany is no longer able to protect them!

Also, another open question: absolutely nothing has been done with Holland so far - anyone have any ideas if anything can be changed with them?

 

[unmerged(43870)]

Ooooh, thank you! This is good!

Thank YOU! Glad you liked it, I was a little uneasy as I don't have much Magyar knowledge and sometimes the skins I make from other peoples ideas don't turn out as well as when I get an inspiration on my own . . .

 

[Gen.Schuermann]

@ Sarmy

Were the Dutch neutral in WW1? Or were they part of the schlieffen plan? Sadly i do not know anything more than that...

 

[Seten]

Heya , in your awesome project (Sarmatia , i really congrat you on your work) is Petain still the verdun's winner?

cause here is what i think about a France right wing resurection =
Petain and De guaule where close friends (de guaule wife was from petain family) , both liked autocrat state (until germany comes and de guaule didnt win to have an agreemenbt with french royal heir , so he went democrat)

I think they would both worked on a right wing coup in a communist regim (and put either petain or probably most the comte of paris on france throne)

Here it will be how it work =
Communist france make a major military error. Angry amongst military
De guaule met petain
De guaule met count of france

A coupt is attemp
Civil war (must be quick)
Victory of count of france support by the army

Reform of the state
And for the expensionist state = claim louis XIV terrirotry ( our france + belgium)
rebuild our empire! = war in africa , war in asia

what do you think of this?

sorry for my bad english

 

[Sarmatia1871]

@ Sarmy

Were the Dutch neutral in WW1? Or were they part of the schlieffen plan? Sadly i do not know anything more than that...

They were supposed to be part of the Schlieffen Plan, but the General Staff decided to only implement a limited version, and just invaded Belgium. So, Holland was neutral - both in real-life and in this alternate timeline...

 

[Sarmatia1871]

Heya , in your awesome project (Sarmatia , i really congrat you on your work) is Petain still the verdun's winner?

cause here is what i think about a France right wing resurection =
Petain and De guaule where close friends (de guaule wife was from petain family) , both liked autocrat state (until germany comes and de guaule didnt win to have an agreemenbt with french royal heir , so he went democrat)

I think they would both worked on a right wing coup in a communist regim (and put either petain or probably most the comte of paris on france throne)

...

what do you think of this?

sorry for my bad english

Many thanks - you're English is fine! At the moment, Petain (and most possible perpetrators of a rightist/monarchist coup d'etat!) are in exile in Algeria, and the mainland is under control of socialists, communists and syndicalists - stay tuned for a more detailed explanation of the French situation and the internal dynamics of the two Frances in a few days time...

I'm actually not sure what to do with de Gaulle yet - anyone have any ideas?

 

[Seten]

Depent on a the french military doctrinne , in a communist regime who want to find new kind of warfare he can become a zhukov like
Remember that he was one of the few that belive in armour spearhead doctrinne
But i dont think he would be likely a supporter of a communist regim , more likely because of his ties with petain family he would have join him
(they were friend , de guaule abandonned petain only because he was the collaobration as a thread for french power)

And he was a man of action , with a high charisma amongst the younger of the french military ( the best french leader join him in britain , koenig , the bir hakem winner , leclerc etc etc) , so if you plan a revolution he would be in
Just he would likely refuse a foreign intervention.

I think we can compare this with the 1792 revolution maybe
first year of social revolution , french then wanted stability , they look for a personn with a high charisma , it was napoleon
now communism revolution , developement of the societey but politic instability , then come de guaule =)
then expansionism but always england will be the threat and the point of rally for all the ennemi of this nationalist country

 

[Arilou]

Hmmm, De Gaulle as the new Napoleon? Would he be opportunistic enough to join the Syndicalist french if it meant he could make a career (and reclaim some glory for France at the same time?)

Another issue is the general 'political system' in this timeline - as there are actually no stable non-socialist Republics, any conservative or national movement, particularly one with ties to Germany, is going to be a bit reluctant to depose its Monarch -> This would be seen as something very strange and destabilising...

Speaking of the lack of republics.... Shouldn't there be an option somehow (admittedly completely far-our) of installing a King of the Americas? Just because?

 

[unmerged(43870)]

Speaking of the lack of republics.... Shouldn't there be an option somehow (admittedly completely far-our) of installing a King of the Americas? Just because?

As interesting as this possibility seems, I fear it would be unlikely. I have often thought that if the British had handled things differently in the 18th century, specifically allowing the colonies either representation in Parliament, or the ability to have their own truely self governing assemblies that a constitutional monarchy might have developed in America.

But as regards Kaiserriech I think the ATL branches off from our own too late for this. Unless maybe the Kaiser or someone were to IMPOSE a monarch on the Americans . . . and that could make for some interesting event chains . . .

 

[Seten]

Hmmm, De Gaulle as the new Napoleon? Would he be opportunistic enough to join the Syndicalist french if it meant he could make a career (and reclaim some glory for France at the same time?)

i think yes , but it is really a what if , in his "young" time it would have likely do that , he became wise only at the end of the war
The only thing that can prevent him from joining the syndicalist is if in this what if history his wife would be still one from petain's family

well i think we just have to wait Sarmatia1871 decision