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Ardito said:
Romania had a tank division in 1941.

And? They can develop an Armoured Division by 1940 if they put the effort into it.

And Sweden had a better tank industry than Czechoslovakia, although not as large.

Define better.

Incorrect. Swedish tanks were developed by Swedes. In addition, a number of tanks were bought from Czechoslovakia. It is true however that the Hungarian Toldi I tank was a redesigned (and downgunned) Swedish L-60 tank.

No, you are incorrect. Virtually all of the Swedish designs are foreign copies, modifications, or developments from primarily Czech designs.

Why not simply make the standard tech tree decide this? Minor countries have substantially lower IC than do majors. Hence, their tank formations will trail behind those of bigger countries anyway. Why punish small countries with an inferior tech tree just because they are small?

Because, it is completely unrealistic, and result in a completely wrong result. How do we model the real fact that virtually all minors used older armoured units, but in contemporary formations? You cannot if you follow the major nation model, that is why a minor armour development segment is needed. Every minor nation, from Sweden, Hungary and Romania, used light tanks as their primary tank, or very obsolete medium tanks, until very late in the war (Sweden used light tanks as late as 1950).

And if a minor grows big, why should it continue to be punished with an inferior tech tree?

Because.
 
Define better.

Well, better as in being first in the world incorporating Ferdinand Porsche's torsion suspension (1934) and making wide use of welded armor while the Czech tanks to my knowledge used riveted armor. Maybe 'just as good' could be an alternative judgement.

No, you are incorrect. Virtually all of the Swedish designs are foreign copies, modifications, or developments from primarily Czech designs.

swedlandsverk60.jpg


"In 1934, two slightly different light tanks designated Landsverk L-60 and 100 were produced. Both featured an excellent suspension system, relatively high speed, and well designed shape. Hungary purchased the Landsverk L-60 tank and produced and used them under the designation M38 Toldi I. Two L-60 were sold to Ireland where they still are preserved, one were sold to Austria - fate unknown. Landsverk L-60-S tanks, in Swedish service, after certain modifications were designated as Stridsvagn m/38. 16 tanks were ordered in September 1937, along with 48 AH-IV-Sv also known as Stridsvagn m/37."
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/swe/Swedish.htm:

There is nothing Czechoslovakian about this tank at all. The layout, suspension, tracks, engine (Scania-Vabis), machineguns and main armanent (37mm Bofors) is all Swedish. Total deliveries of various versions of the L-60 tanks (according to the website linked to above):

Strv m/38: 16 (1937)
Strv m/39: 20 (Spring 1941)
Strv m/40 L: 100 (Dec 1940-Dec 1942)
Strv m/40 K: 202 (1942-1944)

Featured below: Strv m/40 K, with twin coaxial mg's and 50mm homogenous armour:
Swe-Strv-m40K.jpg


With foreign copies you are probably referring to the Strv m/37 and Strv m/41. The latter was basically the TNH tank. Both were stop gap measures, the designs ultimately originating from Czechoslovakia:

Strv m/37:
Swe-strvm-37.jpg


"Developed from the Czech CKD AH-IV tank. The AH-IV was popular with other nations such as Romania and Iran. The vehicle was considered to have a superior suspension system. Sweden ordered 48 AH-IV-Sv in mid 1930s. Two vehicles were Czech-built, the other 46 were built with license by Jungner firm in Oskarshamn. A total of 48 tanks were delivered to the Swedish army between 1938 (some sources state 1937) and 1939. Stridsvagn m/37 had a riveted construction armed with two 8mm m/36 machine-guns. AB Volvo provided the engine, transmission, and tracks. The tanks were used for infantry support and reconnaissance roles, later they served as Staff tanks. They served at I2 regt. (Göta Livgarde) in Stockholm, but was transfered to I9 regt. and I10 regt. in 1939. In October 1942, all of them were transfered to I18/P1G on Gotland. Stridsvagn m/37 were withdrawn from service in 1953."

Strv m/41:
Swe-StvrM41-1942.jpg


"After negotiations with German authorities, Scania-Vabis were allowed to built their own tanks under license. In June 1941, 116 Stridsvagn m/41 SI were ordered. These were delivered from December 1942 - August 1943. Stridsvagn m/41 were riveted, which made construction easier. Just as the Strv m/38-Strv m/40, it was armed with a 37mm Bofors m/38 gun, and the first batch had the same engine as Strv m/40L, Scania-Vabis type 1664. In June 1942, a further 122 Stridsvagn m/41 were ordered, now under the designation Strv m/41 SII. They had thicker frontal armor and Scanias new engine of type L 603. The first SII vehicles were delivered in October 1943. The last 16 of the 122 ordered, were rebuilt to assualt guns (Sav m/43) and the production ceased of SII ceased in March 1944 when 106 vehicles had been delivered."

In other words, total number of quasi-Czech tanks in Swedish service:
Strv m/37: 48 (delivered: 1938-1939)
Strv m/41: 222 (delivered: Dec 1942-1944)

However...
Sweden continued to develop their own tanks aside the L-60. This resulted in the Strv m/42 Lago:
m42_2.jpg


"By late 1930s, the Hungarian army ordered a 16-ton tank known as Lago from Landsverk AB. Lago was the result of further improvements of the L-60. The army needs for a bigger and better tank resulted in that 100 modifed Lagos were ordered in November 1941. It was designated Stridsvagn m/42, and was a fully modern tank for its time. It was armed with a 75mm L/34 gun, having adequate effect on armored and soft targets. (About the same effect as 75mm StuK37 L/24 gun used by early StuG IIIs). The tank were well protected and had good mobility. In January 1942 another 60 Stridsvagn m/42 were ordered. This time they were to be built with license by Volvo, and 55 of them are fitted with Scania engines while the last five are equipped with a newly developed Volvo engine. All 60 vehicles had hydrualic gearboxes instead of the elctromagnetical in the first batch. To differ the variants from eachother, they are designated; Strv m/42 and E (one engine), M (electromagnetical gearbox), H (hydrualic gearbox). By the end of June 1942, a further 80 vehicles are ordered from Landsverk, 70 m/42 TH and 10 m/42 EH. In addition, some 42 m/42 EH are ordered from Volvo. The first of the 282 ordered Strv m/42 were delivered in April 1943, and the last in January 1945. The equipped the heavy tank companies of the armored brigades, but were replaced during the 1950s by Stridsvagn 81, the Swedish designation on Centurion Mk. III."

Strv m/42 Lago: 282 (delivered: 1943-1945)

A note on this tank: Internet sources have claimed that the main armament was actually a 75mm Bofors AA gun, yet shortened, mainly because the military's outdated prejudice against trees. It could therefore perhaps be questioned whether it was as lousy at combatting armour as the German short 75mm L/24. Maybe the 76mm of the Soviet T-34/76 would be a better comparison or perhaps even the early US Sherman. At least other sources have stated thus.


Whatever the case, it could hardly be argued that "virtually all of the Swedish designs are foreign copies, modifications, or developments from primarily Czech designs". As can be seen, some were, but not the majority. On the contrary, Sweden had a tank industry of its own that in quality matched that of Czechoslavakia.


Because, it is completely unrealistic, and result in a completely wrong result. How do we model the real fact that virtually all minors used older armoured units, but in contemporary formations? You cannot if you follow the major nation model, that is why a minor armour development segment is needed. Every minor nation, from Sweden, Hungary and Romania, used light tanks as their primary tank, or very obsolete medium tanks, until very late in the war (Sweden used light tanks as late as 1950).

There are in my view two primary faults with this sort of reasoning:
1) How units were organized i.e "formations" really has nothing to do with it. As a determinant of combat efficiency, organization is secondary to tactics and the equipment used in real life. No two nations used the same organization either. Thus, because units in HoI are generic the development of divisional attributes in HoI simply is not an illustration of changing organization, and it shouldn't be. The generic model actually presupposes that things like organization, tactics and equipment are all fused into each stage of the armor unit tech tree (symbolized in Vanilla as development of a "new tank model"). Differentiation is further added through different stages in artillery and infantry weapons etc as well as in researched doctrines.

2) While it is certainly true that minor nations used obsolete equipment, this is fully demonstrated in game simply by the fact that minor nations have much less IC and thus much slower research. This hits at all levels of a ground unit. It lowers the combat factors in different ways because various weapon systems and equipment cannot be researched simultaneously or at the same pace as with major nations. It hits the units of smaller nations also because they cannot research doctrines etc equally fast either (for the same reasons). Thirdly, as soon as small contries start pouring out units, they no longer have the resources to sustain research progress, stalling them at a relatively 'obsolete' level, which is exactly what you are trying to achieve with the special minor nation armor tree in the first place.

Consequently, If Hungary wants to form tank divisions and disregard everything else (and use GW artillery, obsolete rifles and 19th century productivity (machinetools), and in truth, pretty lousy tank divisions), well let them. Who are you to judge?
While providing minors only with special downgraded armour divisions, however, what you are doing McNaughton is nothing less than double taxing small nations simply because they are small. You are using double measures for entities that should really just come out of the system by default.

Do you get this?
 
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I suppose I will have to reiterate...

Czechoslovakia gets the Major nation technology tree, primarily because it had realistic potential to become a major. Its armour development was paralell to a nation who proved to be a major player in WW2 in the aspect of armour production and development.

In 1938, Czechoslovakia, like most majors, was developing a production version of a medium tank. It saw the future of armoured warfare in the medium tank, and had the ability to design and develop this tank on par with other major nations. The STvz39 was to appear around the same time as most contemporary major nation's first primary medium tank (British Cruiser III/IV, German PzKpfw.III, etc.,), and performed very comparably.

Also, its light tank development and production was also on par. It developed and produced a very advanced series of light tanks from 1935-1938. The LTvz35 (after kinks worked out) was a fine tank for 1935, probably one of the best out there (better than most nations light tanks, but inferior to Russia's T-26). The LTvz38, which came out in 1938, at about the time of annexation, probed to be such a useful vehcile to remain in combat production by a major nation (Germany) until 1941, and proved still useful in the field until that time.

Sweden, on the other hand, was able to develop their own tanks, but, still relied heavily on foreign design and procurement. The gains from Czechoslovakia are not as trivial as you make them out to be, but make up a significantly large proportion of Sweden's armoured force.

Also, just comparing tanks doesn't count either, as Czechoslovakia was not only able to develop a 1935 Light Tank, but, also produce it in any real numbers to be in the field before it was obsolete. Same with the LTvz38. The same cannot be said of Sweden. Sweden's production/development was substantially behind the major nations, with their medium tank appearing in 1943, even though it was a 1942 design. The 300 Stvz m/42 tanks took two years to build, basically stating, that it would take Sweden two entire years to build enough medium tanks to create an entire armoured division.

Czechoslovakia was going to have their medium tank developed by 1939, 1940 at the latest, totally on par with the rest of Europe's major nations. I am pretty sure that had they lasted into the 1940s that their armoured developments would have been on par with European majors. Sweden, at its best, was able to field a large number of light tanks within the general timeframe of this game, but, didn't have the ability to effectively develop and produce medium tanks at the required rate.

THIS is the key difference between major and minor nations, their ability to utilize the medium tank as the primary armoured vehicle. Sweden proved that it couldn't, as it didn't fully replace it's light armoured force with medium tanks until the procurement of Centurion IIIs from the United Kingdom. To me, this shows that Sweden is not a major player in the armour development aspect, and should stay with light tanks as its primary force, since, at its best, that was what it was able to accomplish.

Also, in 1943, when the 22 ton Strv m/42 tank was coming out, it was much too light, and under-gunned, when compared to foreign major nation contemporaries, who were producing 30 ton M4 Shermans/Cromwells, armed with higher velocity 57mm and 75mm guns.

xxxxxxxxxx

Swedish tanks were tested in battle, primarily in Central American (where some were used by rebels in the Dominican Republic), and a few AA versions sent to Finland. The Toldi series of light tanks (Hungarian) was based on the Swedish L-60 series of tanks (basically their tanks), which proved to be adequate light tanks, but, by the time they actually saw combat in 1941, were hopelessly obsolete. These Toldi tanks were replaced by LTvz38 tanks in the Hungarian arsenal, primarily because the difference between the two, performance wize, was not significant. They were light tanks, of 37mm Armament, with around 50mm armour maximum. Welded or bolt, doesn't mean that a nation had the better ability to develop tanks, but, made a choice as to development. Bolted or welded, the L-60/LTvz38-type light tank was obsolete by 1941.

The quality, in the end, did not match Czechoslovakia, as, Sweden relied on Light tanks much longer than Czechoslovakia was going to, and their development, and their development of these real tanks were years ahead of Sweden, who became increasingly behind the times (producing better and better light tanks, due to realistic constraints, when most other armour nations were moving into the medium tank). Hungary, who produced the relatively high quality Turan and Toldi tanks, found that they were outclassed on the battlefield, mainly because they were high Quality, 2 years before they saw active service. Sweden was in the same predicament as Hungary, with the only difference between the two was that Sweden developed the tanks, Hungary used and modified them. In the end, they were in the same realistic situation.

Here are my faults with your faults.

#1. Anyway, tactics are represented by 'organization' values, while equipment does affect some part of the statistics. However, having 300 tanks in a clumsy armoured division, with little infantry support, is NOT twice as powerful as a division with 150 tanks and balanced infantry support. In fact, the 150 tank division is more effective than the 300 tank division, purely because of organization. Utilizing older tanks in a balanced, combined arms, formation proved their worth in the battles in France and Russua, where German armoured forces were inferior in quality, as well as numbers, but, were organized in a way that they were individually more powerful units, not because of their equipment, but because their armoured forces had sufficient infantry, artillery, and reconiassance support. Training did play a large part, but, even with training being high, in their older, tank-heavy organization, German armoured divisions faced heavy losses in the Polish campaign when not adequately supported because of poor divisional organization. Divisional organization, along with equipment, is supremely important. Nations like Sweden, Romania and Hungary used older equipment longer, but, were able to use this equipment more efficiently in 1944 than in 1940, mainly because the support troops, and armoured deployment of what tanks they had, were improved.

#2. Frankly, your solution will end up with minor nations having POORER armoured forces than in my situation. There is no way in hell that Sweden would be able to develop anything other than pitiful armoured forces, which are hopelessly outclassed because their supporting infantry, artillery, anti-tank, recon are all from 1936, the same era as their tanks. This sticks these nations into keeping unrealistically poor forces, or have their entire army suffer through lack of doctrinal research, a very poor solution to the problem of armoured development, in my opinion. One has nothing to do with the other.

I don't care what you feel that a nation could do at the expense of another field, this is the wrong way to solve problems, in my opinion, stating impossibilities were probabilities. What I care about is to get the game to reflect a realistic development of forces, where true limitations are met, and the realization that an armoured development, the size at which major nations had, was only achievable if there was a sufficient history of tank development, as well as the industrial base to really do anything about it. Very few nations had this industrial base, and, for the most part, my minor-nation armour development tree has been EXTREMELY generous.

Sweden did not have the ability to develop further armoured forces, or keep up to the major nations. No nation CAN have all other development suffer at the expense of one special toy. That is unrealistic, and more representative of a computer game than a historic simulation. HoI2 is a game, but, no sense in making obsurdities becoming the rule. It is absurd to think that Sweden could develop a tank comparable to the Tiger I, or Tiger II in the timeframe of the game.

I took steps to limit unrealistic development becoming the rule, and stopped minor nations from being short changed by the armoured division development process of HoI2. I gave Minor nations a greater ability at fielding a modern and effective armoured force, albiet limited in scale, and not equal to a major nation's ability.

You don't seem to understand the high cost not only of creating an initial armoured force, but, sustaining it through combat. Sweden could barely field 400 tanks in the WW2 timeframe, not enough to have a SINGLE regular, major nation, wartime armoured division, and have it sustain any form of real casualties. This is a factor that I took into account. Which is why light armoured forces are comparatively lighter in total numbers of tanks (meaning that to replace armoured losses would be less of a focus), but truely much heavier in support troops.