Give us bride shows

[Theoderic Strab-on]

Title. Since this is a Byzantine DLC, we should get bride shows.

First wife of Constantine VI, empress Maria of Amnia (a granddaughter of Saint Philaretos) was chosen in a bride show ordered by his mother Empress Eirene.

Empress Theodora, wife of Emperor Theophilos, was chosen in a bride show that his step-mother Empress Euphrosyne arrenged.

Empress Eudokia(Dekapolitissa), wife of Emperor Michael III, was chosen in a bride show his mother Empress Theodora arranged. Besides Eudokia Ingerina Michael's mistress, two other notable participants of this bride show was members of Guberios family (May or may not be related to Kuber), Eirene and her sister Theodosia who became the second wife of Michael III's maternal uncle Bardas. The sisters were also relatives of a Guber who became Logotothes tou Dromou in 866 after Sabbatios the Armenian and was at one point also a Komes of the Opsikion.

Eirene

www.degruyter.com

Empress Theophano, wife of Emperor Leo VI was chosen in a bride show by his mother Empress Eudokia (Ingerina) who was also distantly related to Theophano.

I'm sure there have been more instances that I can't remember right now but in all the cases given above, it is Empress Mother doing it so perhaps it can be tied to an event/decision triggered by her.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

What's a bride show? Is that like a beauty contest?

 

[Silens]

What's a bride show? Is that like a beauty contest?

It's the medieval equivalent to us opening the character search and filtering for potential marriage candidates.

Our access to the character finder with filter options makes stuff like a bride show redundant. Similar to the "hire physician" decision, just for brides.

In theory it's nice and immersive, but in terms of gameplay it's not really needed.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Yes, that thing happened and perhaps even more then once. But would you really want that in your game? As a player, would you want the AI to choose your bride. You most likely will not like the choice and then you either have to divorce her or more drastically kill.

 

[Silens]

While a bridal show might not be the best choice for Europe, Africa and the Middle East, I'd like to add that there was the concubine selection process for Imperial China. Which isn't on the map (yet), but it's as good a time as any to at least mention it.

The emperor had his legal wife, the Empress, but he could - and would - take concubines for his harem. Every few years a new round would start, replacing older (or dead) concubines, or simply expanding the harem further. There were emperors having over 70 concubines at times, although that is already the upper scale as far as it goes.

The selection process itself wasn't just a show, it was a political affair. All the candidates were from renowned and prestigous families relevant to the empire. To keep the realm stable, the emperor would accept women from families he wished to honor. Humiliating a candidate at the event, or if a girl embarrassed herself (bad clothing, bad manners, offending the emperor etc.), was also humiliating for the family.

If a family had no suitable candidate, they risked not having access to the emperor, so they really tried hard to participate whenever the occasion arose. That, and having a concubine in the harem meant having a chance to maybe provide the successor to the throne. Blood ties to the emperor were a powerful tool.

This is about the only context in which I think such an event would work. Not just as a system to get a suitable bride (the character finder already does that), but first and foremost a system to make a political statement within your realm.

Other than Imperial China, I know of no other bridal/concubine selection process with such big political implications. I think I remember that Muslim harems recruited their brides from slave girls (concubinate wasn't entirely accepted in Islam, so it had strong limitations), so the process of entering the harem wasn't nearly as political. There was simply no strong influential dynasty behind those women.

So yeah, such an event could be a political activity with a 10 year cooldown for Imperial China. That's where it would make some sense, historically speaking, and would offer some RP potential beyond just looking for a bride.

 

[Theoderic Strab-on]

What's a bride show? Is that like a beauty contest?

Well actually it is. The brides chosen were first and foremost ladies from prominent families that were chosen for their beauty.

It's the medieval equivalent to us opening the character search and filtering for potential marriage candidates.

Our access to the character finder with filter options makes stuff like a bride show redundant. Similar to the "hire physician" decision, just for brides.

In theory it's nice and immersive, but in terms of gameplay it's not really needed.

Actually not. Empress Eirene negotiating a marriage between her son and Charlemagne's daughter is the equivalent of that. Bride show equivalent in game would be like throwing a feast and only inviting certain people and then choosing one among them to marry. As for whether it is needed or not, weddings are also not needed but we have them and its a nice feature (not counting all the bugs and other problems associated with them).

Yes, that thing happened and perhaps even more then once. But would you really want that in your game? As a player, would you want the AI to choose your bride. You most likely will not like the choice and then you either have to divorce her or more drastically kill.

Actually, you may. Participants were chosen for their beauty and family so no bad choices, it would go very well together with the new features of Byzantine Empire and you can also add some bonuses etc just like grand wedding has. Also, even without these it would actually benefit the ai which is known to marry their 16 year old sons to 40 year old fornicator lowborns.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

But a human player mostly doesn't look for beautiful wifes from good families. They look for wifes with good stats in all or some of the skills, good traits or for inheritance. The Byzantine emperor didn't seek a wife for those reasons so a brideshow wasn't setup to search for that. Also it only would apply to the emperor, the lower nobility didn't hold those kind of brideshows.

I also don't see how this would benefit the AI, which as you say already has trouble enough in finding good wifes, giving you and the AI limited choices will further weaken the AI and rob the players of the freedom to chose and pick a wife.

In game you could let your regent (in an entrenched regency) force you to marry someone, beneficial to the regent. Like f.e. Romanos Lekapenos did with his daughter to Constantine VII.

 

[Drake_Hound]

Eugenics program is something that Advance Players engage into, and while I would like the Bride Shows, is it really needed?

The AI doesn't engage into the Eugenics Program like Players do, and NO removing Eugenics program from CK3 would be ridiculous.
Cause it is fully functioning and fun thing to do once you gotten to a stage, where you are learning there is more to marriages and kids, then just click select and marry.

Learning mechanic like Eugenics, shouldn't be touched at all.

 

[Theoderic Strab-on]

But a human player mostly doesn't look for beautiful wifes from good families. They look for wifes with good stats in all or some of the skills, good traits or for inheritance. The Byzantine emperor didn't seek a wife for those reasons so a brideshow wasn't setup to search for that. Also it only would apply to the emperor, the lower nobility didn't hold those kind of brideshows.

I also don't see how this would benefit the AI, which as you say already has trouble enough in finding good wifes, giving you and the AI limited choices will further weaken the AI and rob the players of the freedom to chose and pick a wife.

In game you could let your regent (in an entrenched regency) force you to marry someone, beneficial to the regent. Like f.e. Romanos Lekapenos did with his daughter to Constantine VII.

Again, you are wrong. Being of "higher nobility" if you can use it for Byzantine Empire, and being at least somewhat beautiful were only criteria for being chosen to attend to the brideshow so for in game purposes you may very well choose a diplomacy wife, or a wife also has intellect trait etc. for wife.

AI benefit is as plain as I have written above. AI constantly marries to lowborns, people with diseases, people 40 years older etc. so limiting the spouse of emperor at least would help AI somewhat and I really don't understand your point of robbing the freedom of the player to choose a wife. Not all emperors got their wives like that, even emperors who had one wife like that may later have married without the brideshow so this isn't something you would force down on the player.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

I am pretty sure the candidates for the bridal shows of Byzantine emperors came from prominent Byzantine families that were needed to be kept on side. Not at all like a beauty contest.

 

[Theoderic Strab-on]

I am pretty sure the candidates for the bridal shows of Byzantine emperors came from prominent Byzantine families that were needed to be kept on side. Not at all like a beauty contest.

No. It was both. Candidates were chosen for their beauty but only the daughters of important families were chosen as candidates. So to become a candidate you had to be from an important family first and beautiful, or at least somewhat beautiful second. These girls were then presented to the Empress and the emperor and chosen for other criteria that fits the Empress/Emperor.

Theophilos for example is said to be impressed by Saint Kassia but ultimately chose Theodora due to a response Kassia gave to something he said.

Eudokia Dekapolitissa was probably chosen by Theodora due to the faith of her family as Eudokia Ingerina the mistress of Michael was also attending the show but her family were iconoclasts.

Theophano Martinakia was forced upon Leo by Basil due to her belonging to Martinakioi a family related to two previous imperial families Heraclius' dynasty and the Amorian dynasty. But Eudokia Ingerina also had a hand and perhaps she secretly made sure that the bride that was going to be chosen was her: she had twelve girls brought for the show, all from her homeland so most possibly some favoritism going on there and although it is claimed that Eudokia Ingerina did not know this at the time, Theophano was a distant kin of her. Highly suspicious that candidates all came from one area, one is a distant relative of her and the one person with imperial connections is that relative.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

No. It was both. Candidates were chosen for their beauty but only the daughters of important families were chosen as candidates. So to become a candidate you had to be from an important family first and beautiful, or at least somewhat beautiful second. These girls were then presented to the Empress and the emperor and chosen for other criteria that fits the Empress/Emperor.

Theophilos for example is said to be impressed by Saint Kassia but ultimately chose Theodora due to a response Kassia gave to something he said.

Eudokia Dekapolitissa was probably chosen by Theodora due to the faith of her family as Eudokia Ingerina the mistress of Michael was also attending the show but her family were iconoclasts.

Theophano Martinakia was forced upon Leo by Basil due to her belonging to Martinakioi a family related to two previous imperial families Heraclius' dynasty and the Amorian dynasty. But Eudokia Ingerina also had a hand and perhaps she secretly made sure that the bride that was going to be chosen was her: she had twelve girls brought for the show, all from her homeland so most possibly some favoritism going on there and although it is claimed that Eudokia Ingerina did not know this at the time, Theophano was a distant kin of her. Highly suspicious that candidates all came from one area, one is a distant relative of her and the one person with imperial connections is that relative.

Compare book of Esther to Byzantine bridal show. The Byzantine bridal show is not a true beauty contest. The women being selected were pre screened.

 

[Theoderic Strab-on]

Compare book of Esther to Byzantine bridal show. The Byzantine bridal show is not a true beauty contest. The women being selected were pre screened.

By prescreened do you mean that they were chosen for specific physical traits, measured etc then yes, it was done but isn't it done on modern beauty paegents as well because they sure do look like that. In any case the bride shows purpose is not the selection of choosing who is the most beautiful so yes, not a true one but it is somewhat comparable, although I can't think of a bride that was chosen solely for being the most beautiful, there is nothing against that the emperor/empress ultimately deciding that beauty is the most important criteria and choosing solely for that.

On the other hand what you mean by screening they were screening out the candidates so no remaining "contestant" would say they would end world hunger and bring world peace etc then yeah, you are absolutely right, nothing at all like a beauty contest. What emperor in his sane mind would want such a bride even if their mother or selected bride is named or even renamed to Eirene.

 

[child_of_air]

I'm okay with it, as long as we can have Husband Shows as well. Maybe with some skimpy clothing on a catwalk? Yes please!

 

[apollo1989vieten]

By prescreened do you mean that they were chosen for specific physical traits, measured etc then yes, it was done but isn't it done on modern beauty paegents as well because they sure do look like that. In any case the bride shows purpose is not the selection of choosing who is the most beautiful so yes, not a true one but it is somewhat comparable, although I can't think of a bride that was chosen solely for being the most beautiful, there is nothing against that the emperor/empress ultimately deciding that beauty is the most important criteria and choosing solely for that.

On the other hand what you mean by screening they were screening out the candidates so no remaining "contestant" would say they would end world hunger and bring world peace etc then yeah, you are absolutely right, nothing at all like a beauty contest. What emperor in his sane mind would want such a bride even if their mother or selected bride is named or even renamed to Eirene.

Being beautiful was not enough to get chosen to be presented to the emperor. You also had to be related to the right people. Compare that to Esther, where all virgins deemed beautiful were brought into the palace for beauty treatments before being presented before Xerxes.

 

[Theoderic Strab-on]

Being beautiful was not enough to get chosen to be presented to the emperor. You also had to be related to the right people. Compare that to Esther, where all virgins deemed beautiful were brought into the palace for beauty treatments before being presented before Xerxes.

And I have said they were from prominenr families how many times? Twice? Thrice?

 

[apollo1989vieten]

And I have said they were from prominenr families how many times? Twice? Thrice?

And that difference makes a big difference between it being a true beauty show.

 

[Evethor]

It`s a good Mod idea, but I`m not sure it belongs or is needed in the game.

 

[Anonymous01]

The Match Making intent for Grand Weddings gets pretty close to this. As long as you manage the guestlist well.

 

[Theoderic Strab-on]

It`s a good Mod idea, but I`m not sure it belongs or is needed in the game.

Do weddings belong to the game or were they needed in the game? It was a mod once, well, I don't know of it being a seperate mod but CK2 Agot mod had weddings.
This is pretty much in the same vein. It can be a nice little activity specific for a culture(based on cultural tradition). Having culture specific activities would add to the game.

I'm okay with it, as long as we can have Husband Shows as well. Maybe with some skimpy clothing on a catwalk? Yes please!

Byzantine Empire with male inheritance shouldn't have it but perhaps a Bizarretine empire with female inheritence?