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Mercisv11

Mercisv11

Corporal
Dec 28, 2023
28
62
Good morning to all Byzantium lovers. Not my first game, but my second will certainly try to rebuild rome as best as possible. After seeing how the estates will work, or at least the idea, what do you think would be the right representation for Byzantium?
What do you think would be interesting mechanics to represent the decadence of Eastern Rome. And any content you hope to see for Byzantium (and perhaps for any country if it goes into a decadent spiral which I sincerely hope to see).
I am no expert on Byzantine history but I think we have a civil war coming up. Is it avoidable?
I would expect to see a slight glimpse of the intrigues and infighting that brought the empire to the point it is at now. As well as a general mechanism of decay that represents the corruption, technological backwardness and instability of the empires.
 
The historical inciting incident of the upcoming civil war was the unexpected death of the Emperor leaving an uncodified regency and power vacuum. I doubt the starting emperor will be scripted to die in 1341, but I suspect there will be mechanics to model how there hadn't really been an institutional basis for transferring political legitimacy from ruler to heir since around the time of Sulla. The starting laws/estate privileges/whatever will probably make civil wars difficult to avoid, especially for an AI, and is probably part of how they pseudo-railroad the Byzantine collapse and the Ottoman rise if nobody is playing in the area.
 
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With larger Roman Empire with a better perspective of surviving and with so many people who want to play it I hope devs will prepare a proper amount of Roman flavor. No matter what - Roman Empire will be restored!
 
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Aquila SPQR said:
Phobia?

Can you show us on the map of Middle East where the Roman Empire touched you?
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1711639994078.png
 
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RMS Oceanic said:
The historical inciting incident of the upcoming civil war was the unexpected death of the Emperor leaving an uncodified regency and power vacuum. I doubt the starting emperor will be scripted to die in 1341, but I suspect there will be mechanics to model how there hadn't really been an institutional basis for transferring political legitimacy from ruler to heir since around the time of Sulla.
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what? The naming of co emperors, the adoption of people other than your sons, etc etc
 
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My initial thoughts are you'll probably have to bankrupt the nation with mercenaries to deal with all of Rome's problems because if anyone declares war on you everyone else probably will as well. Though if you can ally Hungary or Genoa at start I don't think it should be too hard.
 
It is good to see fellow Purple Patriots are already planning our glorious resurgence.
 
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I actually really like the idea of having Byzantium reorient itself and become part of the Renaissance (as neighbouring Italy) and a rich maritime state focused around traders and craftsmen (burghers). The initial objective would be regaining most of the Anatolian coast, the rest of the Byzantine heartlands in Anatolia and the Balkans could be gradually retrieved while reforming and turning Byzantium into a modern state. I think it would be very interesting to not reconquer all of the Roman Empire, but just turn Byzantium into the European major power it was through the Middle Ages, this time around in an early modern hue, to create a state that can stand up to any christian kingdom (but doesn't have to be multiple times the size of all the others). At least I hope the mechanics for economy and laws/reforms will make this kind of gameplay fun.
 
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William the Merry said:
what? The naming of co emperors, the adoption of people other than your sons, etc etc
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These are all highly personalistic manners of conferring legitimacy, and don't always take. For large stretches of Roman history the only legitimacy one could rely on was your military prowess, and even that wasn't foolproof. Essentially you somehow have to build up the political capital to (A) have your own rule stick; and (B) make sure your decision of who succeeds you also sticks, which in turn requires your heir to build up their own political capital. That's a lot of prep time and if it's cut short, or you do something wrong, civil war. It was never like the modern British Monarchy, where I think if the King decided to name any heir other than his firstborn child it would be ignored.
 
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RMS Oceanic said:
These are all highly personalistic manners of conferring legitimacy, and don't always take. For large stretches of Roman history the only legitimacy one could rely on was your military prowess, and even that wasn't foolproof. Essentially you somehow have to build up the political capital to (A) have your own rule stick; and (B) make sure your decision of who succeeds you also sticks, which in turn requires your heir to build up their own political capital. That's a lot of prep time and if it's cut short, or you do something wrong, civil war. It was never like the modern British Monarchy, where I think if the King decided to name any heir other than his firstborn child it would be ignored.
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Theyre still some methods of legitimacy. Rather than saying in the 2 centuries since sulla, no innovations were made
 
Mercisv11 said:
Good morning to all Byzantium lovers. Not my first game, but my second will certainly try to rebuild rome as best as possible. After seeing how the estates will work, or at least the idea, what do you think would be the right representation for Byzantium?
Click to expand...
Regular Estates get replaced with the Backstabbers, the Traitors, the Greedy and the Enemy. There is no dealing with them they are at 0% happiness permanently and just give you debuffs.
 
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Mercisv11 said:
I am no expert on Byzantine history but I think we have a civil war coming up. Is it avoidable?
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Very much so. The 2nd Palaiologoi Civil War was over the Regency of Andronikos III's son John (who would go on to become Emperor John VI by the startdate found in MEIOU & Taxes). The two sides of the conflict were the Regency under John's Mother and the Ecumenical Patriarch and John Kantakouzenos, Andronikos III's partner who assisted in the administration of the Empire while the Emperor went on campaign against the Empire's growing enemies and to bring Greece back under the Empire's control (he very nearly succeeded in doing this). John Kantakouzenos claimed that Andronikos III gave him the right to be John Palaiologos' regent. Andronikos III's wife and Patriarch disagreed. Thus, civil war.

The reason why the Empire in 1356 lost so much land compared to 1337 is chiefly because John Kantakouzenos called in a favor from the Serbian King and the Serbians would go on to take advantage of the situation and carve out lands from the Empire in Northern and Central Greece and formed the short-lived Serbian Empire. If you ever start up any EUIV mod that starts in 1356 you'll notice a bunch of statelets in Northern and Central Greece ruled by Serbians, that's the remnants of that Empire.

Ultimately Kantakouzenos would be crowned senor Emperor as John V, however, it would only be a brief victory and John Palaiologos would be able to remove him and be crowned John VI of a very reduced and crippled Empire.

As an aside, the reason why the Ottomans control Gallipoli in 1356 is because of an earthquake in 1354 destroyed a fortification and left it vulnerable to Ottoman conquest (which they did).

Was the Civil War avoidable? Absolutely! Had Kantakouzenos died of a stubbed toe before the outbreak of Civil War (or grew a conscious... so died before the civil war) that would have done it. Or had Andronikos III lived for another decade, which was entirely doable, the man died at 44 years old of an unknown illness (possibly malaria), it basically would've avoided the issue of the regency entirely.

capetown2 said:
Civil war should be near unavoidable, or at least penalties for avoiding war need to have some maluses in another direction
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For the AI, maybe, but the Civil War was easily avoidable in 1337.
 
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EU3NOOB said:
Very much so. The 2nd Palaiologoi Civil War was over the Regency of Andronikos III's son John (who would go on to become Emperor John VI by the startdate found in MEIOU & Taxes). The two sides of the conflict were the Regency under John's Mother and the Ecumenical Patriarch and John Kantakouzenos, Andronikos III's partner who assisted in the administration of the Empire while the Emperor went on campaign against the Empire's growing enemies and to bring Greece back under the Empire's control (he very nearly succeeded in doing this). John Kantakouzenos claimed that Andronikos III gave him the right to be John Palaiologos' regent. Andronikos III's wife and Patriarch disagreed. Thus, civil war.
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EU3NOOB said:
For the AI, maybe, but the Civil War was easily avoidable in 1337.
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This sounds very simmilar to the "War of the Roses" crisis that England has to deal with at the start of eu4. No clear heir leading to civil war, powerful neighbours to contend with etc. This is also something that can be avoided by a player able to get an heir in time, so I thing eu5 might borrow from this mechanc.
 
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