Feudalism or Merchant Republic?

[Ru7]

Playing as Norse Ragnar, ~810, and will stay Norse. Have never played as Merchant Republic (MR) before. I've just read several discussions on this topic, yet have some questions. Maybe, the answers will be useful for someone else as well in the future.

Many advisors in these discussions say that the choice depends on your goals... So,

I want to gain as much territory as possible AND develop/have it developed it as much as possible too, in order to convert to eu4 and then to vic2 with %dev increase (rather than straight dev conversion). So, more territory is preferable.
Republic form of rulership and picking an heir are nice, but I'm planning to go for an immortal would-be-eu4 6/6/6 ruler, and converting into republic later in eu4 anyway.

So, questions:
1.1 Based on the goals, what is more preferable, feudalism or MR?
1.2 Can offer vassalization as MR?
1.3 Are there any penalties for the held territory/vassals?
1.4 Any penalties to your demense size?
1.5 Will I be able to create duchy/kingdom/empire-size titles? Will I be able to grant them to somebody?
1.6 Will there be any good CBs left? So I won't have to fight, say, the whole France for one single county each time?

Apart from holding and developing territory, control is also important.
2.1 As a MR, will I be able to imprison people catched plotting,.including my vassals' vassals and courties?
2.2 Will I be able to revoke titles without gaining general opinion penalties for doing so (would be a decent advantage to feudalism)?
2.3 What other law limitations would be, if any?
2.4 In MR, I can choose an heir. Can I do so with feudalism, apart from religion reforming? Say, with some inheritance laws.
2.5 Will I be able to stay the head of Norse Religion and pass it to my heir?

I heard trade posts give a lot of money.
3.1 But can I set tradeposts inside my territory? Or territory of my vassals?
3.2 Can I conquer provinces?

Finally, would it be as much fun to play as a MR in terms of events, decisions, etc? Are any cool ones going to be cut due to abandonship of feudal/tribal society?

 

[jonjowett]

If you've got the patience, you can conquer the whole of the CK2 map in ~200 in-game years. (Or 2-3 in-game years, if you're that one guy with near-infinite patience.)

But you say you want as much territory as possible, so I guess you aren't aware of how easy it is to conquer huge realms in CK2. In that case, how much land do you want? 2-3 de jure empires, maybe?

It's near-impossible to develop anything more than 1-2 duchies to the maximum. (The limiting factor is getting 7 holdings in each county - this takes a looooong time.) You're Norse (ie. you can raid with ships for massive amounts of gold), so you could in theory become the envy of the world as an independent duke.

In short, the guides you read were correct: if you have the skill, you can do pretty much whatever you want.

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> 1.2 Can offer vassalization as MR?
Not 100% sure, but I believe you can. (I rarely play MRs, and I rarely offer vassalisation...)

> 1.3 Are there any penalties for the held territory/vassals?
No penalties for held territory. All feudal-type vassals will have a "wrong government type" opinion towards you, which will probably be mildly inconvenient.

> 1.4 Any penalties to your demense size?
No.

> 1.5 Will I be able to create duchy/kingdom/empire-size titles? Will I be able to grant them to somebody?
Yes. And yes.

> 1.6 Will there be any good CBs left? So I won't have to fight, say, the whole France for one single county each time?
There are many CBs, and several that are overpowered:

• If you reform the Germanic religion, you'll get holy wars and GHWs.
• You can always invite a claimant to your court and press their claims. (IE: 1 war = 1 kingdom.)
• Your vassals will probably launch prepared invasions if you stay Germanic. (They often lose, but they might gain you kingdoms/empires.)
• The Alexander bloodline gives one use of the invasion cb per lifetime. (IE: You can conquer the whole of the largest realm on the map once per lifetime.)
• Culture-shifting to Altaic etc and staying tribal gives unlimited invasions.

> 2.1 As a MR, will I be able to imprison people catched plotting,.including my vassals' vassals and courties?
Yes

> 2.2 Will I be able to revoke titles without gaining general opinion penalties for doing so (would be a decent advantage to feudalism)?
No, revoking without a reason is tyrannical.

> 2.3 What other law limitations would be, if any?
Off the top of my head:

• You're limited to Patrician Elective succession.
• No matrilineal marriages, no female rulers. (Do not attempt to work around this by reforming your religion with Enatic Clans: Enatic MRs are very very very buggy.)
• The dynastic tithing system (every adult male dynast in your court gets some of ỳour income) will seriously cut into your regular monthly income, but there are workarounds/exploits.

Otherwise, it's much the same as feudal.

> 2.4 In MR, I can choose an heir. Can I do so with feudalism, apart from religion reforming? Say, with some inheritance laws.
Yes, there are many. For example: Elective, Eldership, Tanistry, Primo/Ultimo + religion with meritocracy, Open. They all have different quirks; I suggest you read up on them.

> 2.5 Will I be able to stay the head of Norse Religion and pass it to my heir?
If you have HF active, this is an option. (My least favourite option, but that's definitely just my opinion.) If you don't have HF then this is the way Reformed Germanic works, and you have no choice about it.

 

[majdavlk]

> 2.5 Will I be able to stay the head of Norse Religion and pass it to my heir?
If you have HF active, this is an option. (My least favourite option, but that's definitely just my opinion.) If you don't have HF then this is the way Reformed Germanic works, and you have no choice about it.

should be possible even without holy fury. and you dont have to be the religious head without it, you can grant it away

 

[majdavlk]

if you want to develop your lands to its fullest, i think it would be better to go feudal and keep inheriting duchies. patricians dont seem able to inherit from outside of the republic. it will give you more techpoints. then spam merchant republics inside your realm

 

[jonjowett]

should be possible even without holy fury. and you dont have to be the religious head without it, you can grant it away

Yes, sorry if my post was a bit confusing.

Without HF, Reformed Germanic is the only reformed pagan religion with "temporal" leadership, ie. it's the only pagan religion where the player can be the head of the religion.

The player can of course choose to grant any temporal head of religion title to a vassal if they want. It's just... not usually a sensible idea. (The notable exception being if you need/want to convert to a different religion for a limited period of time: generate a holy man, grant him a holding, convert, do your thing, convert back, kill the holy man.)

 

[jonjowett]

if you want to develop your lands to its fullest, i think it would be better to go feudal and keep inheriting duchies. patricians dont seem able to inherit from outside of the republic. it will give you more techpoints. then spam merchant republics inside your realm

If the goal is maximum tech spread, and your realm is no more than 2-3 de jure empires, this is probably not the most efficient method.

600 in-game years is a long time: plenty of time to get tech 8 in everything in your capital (~100-200 years) and for all of your demesne counties to also get tech 8 in everything (~50-100 years). That leaves 300 years for tech to diffuse from your demesne to the rest of your realm. If your demesne is not consolidated - eg. if you have your capital duchy and 5-6 additional counties scattered roughly equidistantly around your empire - then this leaves 300-450 years for tech spread to the rest of your realm, which should be more than enough. If necessary, you can build universities and temple schools in your vassals' counties to speed up the spread.

(This method is even better if there's a really good reason to have those 5-6 scattered counties - eg. if you're on the silk road. However, I can't think of any reason other than tech spread for structuring your demesne this way in Scandinavia in unmodded CK2.)

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On rereading, I think @majdavlk is recommending a method for maximising your personal techpoints. (Make lots of dukes and kill them to inherit their techpoints.) This is IMO unnecessary - all you need is a consistently high learning skill (which is easy with artifacts) and Jewish skill-20+ chancellor & steward & spymaster (for the frequent random events which give techpoints). This'll get you ahead of time in tech stupidly quickly.

 

[Sanvone]

Regarding developing lands we were discussing this and crunching some numbers so take a look:
Theory Crafting

 

[majdavlk]

ie. it's the only pagan religion where the player can be the head of the religion.

thats not correct. its possible to be the head of religion of all religions even if they are reformed with hierocratic/autocephalous. but getting k_orthodox and the hellenic one is kinda hard and unreliable.

If the goal is maximum tech spread, and your realm is no more than 2-3 de jure empires, this is probably not the most efficient method.

600 in-game years is a long time: plenty of time to get tech 8 in everything in your capital (~100-200 years) and for all of your demesne counties to also get tech 8 in everything (~50-100 years). That leaves 300 years for tech to diffuse from your demesne to the rest of your realm. If your demesne is not consolidated - eg. if you have your capital duchy and 5-6 additional counties scattered roughly equidistantly around your empire - then this leaves 300-450 years for tech spread to the rest of your realm, which should be more than enough. If necessary, you can build universities and temple schools in your vassals' counties to speed up the spread.

(This method is even better if there's a really good reason to have those 5-6 scattered counties - eg. if you're on the silk road. However, I can't think of any reason other than tech spread for structuring your demesne this way in Scandinavia in unmodded CK2.)

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On rereading, I think @majdavlk is recommending a method for maximising your personal techpoints. (Make lots of dukes and kill them to inherit their techpoints.) This is IMO unnecessary - all you need is a consistently high learning skill (which is easy with artifacts) and Jewish skill-20+ chancellor & steward & spymaster (for the frequent random events which give techpoints). This'll get you ahead of time in tech stupidly quickly.

that might be possible, i am not sure how quicly the tech spreads.
in that case just spam merchant republics for gold income so you have money to build the buildings?

 

[jonjowett]

thats not correct. its possible to be the head of religion of all religions even if they are reformed with hierocratic/autocephalous. but getting k_orthodox and the hellenic one is kinda hard and unreliable.

Pagan reformation is different with and without HF. Without HF, you have no choice about the features of the reformed religion. Without HF, only Germanic has a temporal head (every other reformed pagan religion is heirocratic).

 

[Ru7]

Pagan reformation is different with and without HF. Without HF, you have no choice about the features of the reformed religion. Without HF, only Germanic has a temporal head (every other reformed pagan religion is heirocratic).

Temporar? Pretty sure that the Fylkirat tittle was passed to my heir even before the HF.

 

[jonjowett]

Temporar? Pretty sure that the Fylkirat tittle was passed to my heir even before the HF.

Exactly.

One way of thinking of non-HF reformed pagan religions is as a fixed/unchangeable set of HF characteristics. Non-HF reformed Germanic is something like Warmongering / Sons of Ragnarok / Temporal.