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Enforcement of attack delays for planned orders in 1.1

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This thread is just totally me, Hoi3 is ALSO about frontline tactics, and deep incursions just make me drool. Right now I just spam-research the time-decrease because I just can't wait a week before I can move my toys again.

The suggested minimal organisation requirements make it alot more realistic and also gives good defenders the chance to stop deep incursions.. just do enough damage on first contact ;)

Oh and the AI really seems to loaded with 1918's tactics, instead of 1940 type. If you let the AI do the talking you will end up with an infantry-rugby match.. bah!
 
I agree with the Op and also note what GAGA said as the AI can not react well to a break through.

Here's my solution:

Attack with forces in Pincher movement.
Leave 1 or 2 divisions/Corps not attacking.
As soon as you break through/take province, click on those unused units.
Tell them to attack the second province. Since they were not in the orginal attack they will move through the newly conqoured province and attack.

Only down fall is if you catch the retreating troops and end up fighting them instead of pushing on the attack to a new province.

So it is a two tier attack. It works for me in the Demo.

Can we try this approch to see if it works?

PS:
I'm Down Loading the game now since there no copies to be found in the USA 6 days after release!
 
Kayapo said:
Sounds like a good middle of the road, although untill we hear from devs why it was changed we are only finding solutions to problems we can only guess.

If the problem is that the AI can't evaluate those "deep attacks" like the human can and so the feature was removed, this solution of replacing delays to minimum ORG just won't apply to the problem.
Click to expand...

If Paradox solved a mayor balancing issue with this thing, then why does it appear in the tech tree?

I don't think the AI will breakdown and it needs tuning anyway.

In any case what worries me more than the AI, is, how easily you can run over an unmobilized army without it. The attack delay buys the defender at least a little time to mobilize.
 
A mobilized army should be able to run over one which isn't mobilized :)

Draft Laws mitigate this a lot, though - a country with all Volunteer Army has very low strength divs if DoWed before mobilization, but a country with Three-Year-Draft has them on 75% STR & ORG, they're far from being unprepared.
 
A bit strange that a volunteer army is 'worse', usually a volunteer army means that it is a professional army with career soldiers.

Kinda funny that we now have a delay in attack because the AI is such a twat.
 
combat_leader_impact = 0.05,
combat_movement_speed = 0.33,
combat_pushback_damage = 0.05,
combat_pushback_chance_for_damage = 10, -- 10 = 10%
unit_attack_delay = 168,
unit_attack_delay_modify = 10,
unit_digin_cap = 10,
bomb_strategic_resources = 0.25,
bomb_strategic_production = 0.01,
bomb_strategic_buildings = 0.01,

That right there can give a temp fix, though it brings down wait time for all attacks and seems to make the AI super aggressive when fighting XD.
 
Well, in this case we aren't talking about quality of troops we are talking about numbers.

In that sense it is easier to think that a country with very strict conscription laws will have a greater number of soldier available even if caugh of guard then a country that counts only on volunteers.
 
Kayapo said:
Well, in this case we aren't talking about quality of troops we are talking about numbers.

In that sense it is easier to think that a country with very strict conscription laws will have a greater number of soldier available even if caugh of guard then a country that counts only on volunteers.
Click to expand...

Precisely. Besides, nothing in the draft laws stops professional units from being trained and maintained at full strength :)
 
Well, I really don't like hardcoded attack delays anyways.
I think a solution that represents disorder and exhaustion due to a recent attack by a factor that lowers combat effectiveness would be more realistic.

- Attacking with only a short break is possible, but comes at a price - a penalty let's say 90% that fades over time while resting.

- Tech would rather determine how fast that penalty fades.

To be honest: deceisive is how easy a feature can be implemented into a game.
I don't know if this and other - on the first impression - easy solutions are easy codeable and how the AI can handle them. That's a question only the devs can answer.

Also there is indeed a problem with the AI and defense vs. fast advancing troops. An easy and realistic solution could be a scripted garrisoning of important locations for example.
 
Lordban said:
A mobilized army should be able to run over one which isn't mobilized :)

Draft Laws mitigate this a lot, though - a country with all Volunteer Army has very low strength divs if DoWed before mobilization, but a country with Three-Year-Draft has them on 75% STR & ORG, they're far from being unprepared.
Click to expand...

True.:)

Thanks for the hint.
 
Rex Populi said:
I agree with the main point. It forces WWI style warfare and the tech that reduces this delay is not even on the German tech tree.
This approach could work if instead of a human wave tech reducing it by 24 hours, all the spearhed Techs would reduce it by 12 hours each as an added bonus to what they already do. So a determined German player could get rid of the delay by the time the war starts.
OR add a German modifier only applied to Germany that reduces the delay by 72 hours.
Click to expand...

This would in my opinion by far too unbalanced. A German force that can attack non-stop vs. a defender with hardly any chance of making any countermeasures just doesnt seem fair.

Leaving the multi-clicking and pre-planning as it were seems like a much better idea.


Before reading on: It is late in the evening here, and I'm tired, so I didn't read your entire article, or the majority of replies, so this might already be answered.

I read "Maneuver Warfare Handbook" (1985) By William S. Lind recently, and I got the impression that the "Blitzkrieg" tactic consisted of letting a strong unit force the crack in the enemies defences, and then pouring the reserves into this breach and exploit the initiative gained. This way, several "spearhead" units could attack different weakspots in the enemy lines, and the reserve could exploit the most suitable or successfull one. This way the defenders would face multiple attacks, not knowing which area to support with the reserve, plus the attackers would have several options as to were they should commence the "Blitz".
However, this might be awefully wrong for all I know :p
 
Do agree... havent played by controling my troops myself so i wasnt aware of this crap but now im chocked... Do fix this and i dont care if the comp gets an overall 24h only attack delay from 1936 and forward and maybe none from 45 forward.
 
Mini$mith said:
I read "Maneuver Warfare Handbook" (1985) By William S. Lind recently, and I got the impression that the "Blitzkrieg" tactic consisted of letting a strong unit force the crack in the enemies defences, and then pouring the reserves into this breach and exploit the initiative gained. This way, several "spearhead" units could attack different weakspots in the enemy lines, and the reserve could exploit the most suitable or successfull one. This way the defenders would face multiple attacks, not knowing which area to support with the reserve, plus the attackers would have several options as to were they should commence the "Blitz".
However, this might be awefully wrong for all I know :p
Click to expand...

Correct in essentials. What it fails to underline is that some units are going to be used both for the initial breakthrough as spearheads and then will play during the exploitation: the armored divisions.

Presently, those you use for the initial attack in HoI3 are not fully capable of participating in the exploitation, at least not during the early stage, and even fresh reserves can be blocked in their progression if they have to fight more than once after crossing the enemy lines. This is not going to be a hindrance in every HoI3 operation, especially not when facing an AI opponent, but proper defense in-depth and well-placed counterattacks can quickly stop the reserves' progression after the initial breakthrough.
 
Lordban said:
Sort-of true.

Johan did tell me this decision was taken because there were problems for AI and for players.
Click to expand...

I see. That seems odd to me.

I counted the number of provinces from the western German border to Paris. That is a around 10 provinces. With (edit) 7 days attack delay that is seventy days alone for the nearest troups at the border. This is without any battle time or pauses and if you win every battle. How am I you supposed to get WWII blitzkrieg with that?

One would assume, that Johan is capable of making that simple calculation.
 
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No more blitz for germany I guess. In general this makes spearhead (small) encirclements much harder and thus makes large encirclements (through amphib landings etc) more relevent again.
 
wuy3 said:
No more blitz for germany I guess. In general this makes spearhead (small) encirclements much harder and thus makes large encirclements (through amphib landings etc) more relevent again.
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I wouldn't say "no more blitz", merely "not enough blitz". With proper care, especially versus the AI, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to manage lightning strikes. Its reducing any pockets you close which will be a real pain.


And as for "10 provinces to Paris", that's assuming all of them are defended :)
 
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