You're right there is some flavor built in here but just firing up a new game as Aztec you'll notice the techs being researched are Feudal Monarchy, The Barque and Eastern Swarm.
El Dorado: Asymmetry, Disease & Intrigue?
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You're right there is some flavor built in here but just firing up a new game as Aztec you'll notice the techs being researched are Feudal Monarchy, The Barque and Eastern Swarm.
Not true, a player can be a protectorate in some contexts as I've had the option before. However, in most cases I would rather reform the government (NA and SA native councils) to get near them and tech and just beat them. Meso and Andean nations need to hit DIP 3 and load up on early carracks instead; if you do so you can defeat the colonizers at sea and even take their colonies, as opposed to losing. A protectorate is an option but I don't like it because becoming one makes you lose your vassals and money.
If you read up on the Indian Wars, you'll find that natives frequently decimated white armies that they caught by surprise; they just didn't have the economic/manpower base to support large armies. There needs to be a guerrilla warfare system at the least. I'd also suggest that instead of buying tech, Natives "buy" upgrades to their Regiments (so you can, if you have a European patron, gain a core of Westernized troops).
And it's unlikely that the upcoming Mexican religious reforms will replace technology (nor should they be considered exactly 'technology.')
The problem is still on a grander scale, however, with the technology levels making less sense the further from Western Europe you go.
Won't happen. Estimates are that Old World diseases killed 95% of the New World population, meaning total societal breakdown.
There is no way you could play Aztecs and have fun, if you wanna go historical. And more tragically, there is no way an Aztec nation could have avoided this breakdown, even if they had beaten back the Spanish conquistadores.
There is no way you could play Aztecs and have fun, if you wanna go historical. And more tragically, there is no way an Aztec nation could have avoided this breakdown, even if they had beaten back the Spanish conquistadores.
1) It wasn't just the diseases, you have to consider the wars, the destruction of the cities and the explotation (plantations and mines mostly) of the natives.
2) That number is probably on the high end, it could have possibly been lower.
3) That devastation took place in the span of a century, there's room for a mild recovery between outbreaks, especailly if 1) doesn't occur and contact with Europeans is more limited.
Out of curiosity, what would be the most successful historically-plausible way of dealing with plague?
Dying to it.
Edit: Oh, successful? I don't know if there is a successful 'historically-plausible' way for natives to deal with plagues. I doubt it, though. When something you can't even see destroys at least 70% of your population, it's hard to really deal with it.
It's probably worth addressing European doomstacks in Mexico in the 1500s but in that case it's probably worth being realistic with the Aztecs and the Inca. They hadn't even hit the bronze age.
That's a formidable hurdle...
That's a formidable hurdle...
i believe they did have bronze but obsidian is much sharper on unarmored body's and much cheaper to produce and don't underestimate the effect of a stone club to the face. they could have easily fought off a large army due to sheer number before they were devastated by disease. it not like European army's were much beyond unarmored peasants with pikes supported by armored nobility at this point anyway. being behind in metallurgy does not mean you are incompetent in everything else. hell natives captured European ships and effectively sailed and traded with them up and down the coasts. if they had wanted to they could probably have had a navy (i am speaking of more northern natives the Aztec fell to quickly to have much of a chance at anything).
It's also a question of evolution, for lack of a better word. Take the people of the Andes, for instance. They never invented the wheel, because in the Andes, there are better ways of moving around than a wheeled transport.
Yes, because it's much easier to put down all those dead to genetic inferiority than it is to put a significant portion of the fatalities to wars (both internal and external,) genocide, and forced labour.
Always found the representation of the Incan Empire in Civilization to be quite amusing. Insane bonuses to roads... But building them requires them to research the Wheel.
It's an abstracted game, sure, but it's still amusing.
I have played Civ 5, but it just doesn't grab me. Don't know why. So I'll just have to take your word for it. But, you're right. That doesn't make sense.
Maybe I am missing something here, but how is dying from a disease that you never met and have never developed any antibodies for, a genetic inferiority? Again, sorry if I am reading you wrong.
Maybe I am missing something here, but how is dying from a disease that you never met and have never developed any antibodies for, a genetic inferiority? Again, sorry if I am reading you wrong.
Actually, looking it up, while the Incan bonus is still The Great Andean Road, its bonuses only indirectly refer to roads being constructed (no maintainance costs for tile improvements in hills, half cost elsewhere.) Maybe 'insane' really isn't the right word, but it's been a while since I've played it last.
I'm just going by a common argument on these forums. I don't know if the poster was necessarily referring to Innate Immunity or Adaptive Immunity, but the former is the more common one argued by those who claim that continued Native American civilization was completely-impossible.
Yes, the diseases (such as smallpox) had serious consequences to the Americas. But it's silly to ignore the other factors, even if some were exacerbated by disease.
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Diplomacy
Seriously though, you're right, you lose a lot of population and manpower, and recover over a ~30 year period. The trick is surviving as a viable state during that period, which is where diplomacy comes in. This is also the weakest part of the game for aspiring native revisionists and alternate-history buffs.