Don't stand a chance as Japan against China

[Lumpy]

Title says it all. I trigger the Marco Polo Incident early '37, but my advance comes to a halt as soon as I approach Nanjing. I can't even pull off a single landing because every beach is secured by +6 chinese divisions. Coastal bombardment and air support doesn't help. I can't breakthrough because of the sheer number of bodies that stand ready to fill every gap that forms.

I usually build a series of 3 infantry divisions with ari brigades and push my IC to 100 to unlock the tech slots. Any advice?

On a side note, the fact that the chinese army consists of primarily militia is as unhistorical as the high combat effectiveness of said milita divisions.

 

[Gukpa]

Title says it all. I trigger the Marco Polo Incident early '37, but my advance comes to a halt as soon as I approach Nanjing. I can't even pull off a single landing because every beach is secured by +6 chinese divisions. Coastal bombardment and air support doesn't help. I can't breakthrough because of the sheer number of bodies that stand ready to fill every gap that forms.

I usually build a series of 3 infantry divisions with ari brigades and push my IC to 100 to unlock the tech slots. Any advice?

On a side note, the fact that the chinese army consists of primarily militia is as unhistorical as the high combat effectiveness of said milita divisions.

I found it impossible,soon Chinese divisions will reach 400 ,and so 500,and push your back

Edit: but if you have luck,when you declare war on china,they redeploy their troops,and leave Shangai Unguarded,so you can land there in the first day,and soon encircle Nanjing,making Chinese army starve to death

 

[Limith]

Japan AI (once the current broken one in 1.03 is removed) can win versus China AI in a year, and it does so consistently. This is from our own internal testing. It's not impossible. It's actually really really easy. China also can't possibly get 500 divisions, they spend most of their IC on supplies for their current divisions. Less hyperbole please. China doesn't have enough IC to reinforce or build units. Use that to your advantage. Furthermore, if you look at the militia stats and compare it to your infantry + art, you'll notice a significant difference in stats. Just because you have fewer units does not mean you will lose to more units.

If the AI can do it, then so can you.

If you want to see the Japan AI in action, go into the scenario file and comment out/remove the AI_JAP event files.

 

[Lumpy]

I did some testing before posting this thread. I basically encircled Bejing except for one corridor province, attacked the chinese but didn't finish the movement. The genius AI rushed in again and again, taking massive casaulties in the process. I did so for about a year. The ledger says I've inflicted 2 million casaulties in manpower by now. I then loaded up this safe as the chinese and surprise: they were not only reinforcing their melted divisions but had about 20 militia series in order. That China doesn't build more divisions is a false statement, I'm afraid.

But all that aside, how do I pull off a sucessful amphibious landing? With a max efficient stack of 4 Marines, and in multiple waves, coastal bombardment and air support it is just impossible to land anywhere on the chinese coast.

 

[insolent1]

Ally with germany in 33 for all those blueprints, leave the alliance before MP event.
Build as many infantry and mountaineers as possible and use offensive supply.
Don't bother with brigades as its better to have more divisions and art slows you down.
Push for their IC.

 

[Bagel]

But all that aside, how do I pull off a sucessful amphibious landing? With a max efficient stack of 4 Marines, and in multiple waves, coastal bombardment and air support it is just impossible to land anywhere on the chinese coast.

This is my biggest issue with playing Japan. I don't mind it being difficult to break through their hundreds of divisions nearly as much as the fact that they have dozens of those hundreds guarding the coasts making it impossible to land anywhere.

 

[Lucifer]

It is not because China has lots of series in its queue that it can fund all of them.
Early landings in the South are suicidal.
I would like to add that too many people write inaccurate things, or declare that "this or that is impossible, etc...", when it has been shown and proven that it is actually possible by an average level player. (this is not a remark about the original poster who, I assume, is a new player)

 

[Red Roo]

The Sino-Japanese war is easier to me than Barbarossa. It relatively easy if you start in 33' and focus on building armies of infantry. After the initial push and your offensive gets slowed down, you'll need to inflict MAJOR casualties on the Chinese to wear down their divisions to around/less then half strength. In the central area of northern Nat-China (and east of Red-China) there are provinces aligned in 'rows' of 3
and separated by rivers as they they go south. This should be where your advance comes to a halt. Try thinking of them as trenches, and you have to take one trench at a time. Here's how I usually do it:

1: Concentrate just a few more troops in the center province.
2: Order the left and right flanks to "support attack" the enemy's center province in their 'trench'. If you have an airforce, order it to ground-attack/ground-support said provence.
3: Attack with the troops in the center flank/province. The battle should inflict heavy casualties on the Chinese forces.
4: Once you win the battle, order the attacking troops not to advance into the enemy province.
5: Wait for the Chinese forces to regroup and re-enter the central province in their 'trench' (they should be sending more troops in from the left and right of their 'trench' as well to help fill in the gap you just made)
6: Repeat from step 3 until till the Chinese forces are weakened considerably before advancing. Once your center flank has entered the opposing 'trench', use it to support your outer flanks as they advance too.

You can keep doing this until you leave the 'trenches' (I think there is about 3 or 4 of them). From there it's pretty simple as the Chinese wont have enough IC to support the reinforcement of their troops AND the supplying of their armies + production of more units making your fully-manned and organised/supplied divisions capable of steamrolling more than 3-5 x their number! :rofl:.

 

[Lumpy]

It is not because China has lots of series in its queue that it can fund all of them.
Early landings in the South are suicidal.
I would like to add that too many people write inaccurate things, or declare that "this or that is impossible, etc...", when it has been shown and proven that it is actually possible by an average level player. (this is not a remark about the original poster who, I assume, is a new player)

How about giving actual hints instead of bragging how easy it actually is to beat the chinese in DH? I was well able to beat the chinese in all other installments of HoI.

1: Concentrate just a few more troops in the center province.
2: Order the left and right flanks to "support attack" the enemy's center province in their 'trench'. If you have an airforce, order it to ground-attack/ground-support said provence.
3: Attack with the troops in the center flank/province. The battle should inflict heavy casualties on the Chinese forces.
4: Once you win the battle, order the attacking troops not to advance into the enemy province.
5: Wait for the Chinese forces to regroup and re-enter the central province in their 'trench' (they should be sending more troops in from the left and right of their 'trench' as well to help fill in the gap you just made)
6: Repeat from step 3 until till the Chinese forces are weakened considerably before advancing. Once your center flank has entered the opposing 'trench', use it to support your outer flanks as they advance too.

You can keep doing this until you leave the 'trenches' (I think there is about 3 or 4 of them). From there it's pretty simple as the Chinese wont have enough IC to support the reinforcement of their troops AND the supplying of their armies + production of more units making your fully-manned and organised/supplied divisions capable of steamrolling more than 3-5 x their number! :rofl:.

I already used this "tactic" as stated above. It is highly gamey and makes use of the incapable AI. It isn't a fix for the unbalanced situation IMHO. Wouldn't a lower ground defensiveness and events like those of the SU that increase it over time model the struggle of the chinese army best?

This is my biggest issue with playing Japan. I don't mind it being difficult to break through their hundreds of divisions nearly as much as the fact that they have dozens of those hundreds guarding the coasts making it impossible to land anywhere.

Aye. Historical the Japanese were able to land on multiple beaches in the south. What am I doing wrong? As I said, I can't pull off a landing even if I use every tool I got at hand. All I heard so far were remarks how easy it actually is to beat the chinese. Other than "build lots of infantry" there has been no advice. I don't think that having to rush the chinese with massive human waves is historical or balanced at all. Help would be appreciated.

 

[wormyguy]

Wouldn't a lower ground defensiveness and events like those of the SU that increase it over time model the struggle of the chinese army best?

Not sure if you even really need to have events increasing GDE (except maybe to compensate for doctrine disadvantage over time), since the Nationalist Chinese military arguably got worse over the course of the war (culminating in the completely farcical efforts during Operation Ichi-Go and the Chinese Civil War).

 

[Lumpy]

Not sure if you even really need to have events increasing GDE (except maybe to compensate for doctrine disadvantage over time), since the Nationalist Chinese military arguably got worse over the course of the war (culminating in the completely farcical efforts during Operation Ichi-Go and the Chinese Civil War).

Valid point, but I think this would create issues with the japanese AI roflstomping the chinese. My problem is that the difficulties the Japanese faced aren't modelned at all. The Chinese just field so many divisions that I'm hardly able to seize Nanjing even when my forces aren't spread out yet.

 

[Limith]

I can assure you that our internal tests do not reflect the problems you see lumpy with China being too hard to beat. China is far too weak in our internal tests, the AI (when allowed to be normal instead of passive) already roflstomps China. Lucifer is correct. At the same time, difficulties Japan faced aren't modeled, that is correct.

 

[Lumpy]

I can assure you that our internal tests do not reflect the problems you see lumpy with China being too hard to beat. China is far too weak in our internal tests, the AI (when allowed to be normal instead of passive) already roflstomps China. Lucifer is correct. At the same time, difficulties Japan faced aren't modeled, that is correct.

I'll take a look at a handsoff with the passive Japanese AI disabled then.

 

[UNSC Trooper]

Try starting the game in 1936 if all else fails. I've noticed that when I started the game in 1933, it was considerably harder to beat the Chinese, probably because by the time the war started in 1937, they'd already massively expanded their army (unrealistic).

You can beat the Chinese with an army of about 40-50 divisions when you start the war, at least in the 1936 scenario. Encircling Beijing and then advancing down to Nanjing is a cakewalk if you also put the Manchukuo army to good use. Deploy the Manchurian cavalry in your early encirclements around Beijing, then post the Manchurian militias and infantry to defend your front in the west as you advance south. I usually don't do any landings because it takes away manpower from the main front, and it's terribly risky as well since the beachheads could collapse at any time under a moderate assault of pathetic Chinese militias.

Like someone already said, invading China is easier than Barbarossa.

 

[tooichan]

It's actually relatively easy to beat China, as many in this thread have said. Just pump IC until you can unlock the fifth tech group, and then pump out infantry stacks (I did it with arty brig, don't know if it's useful) like there's no tomorrow. Tactical bombers can help too if you have the spare IC (again, it may not be as rewarding). Encircle the areas around Peiping/Beijing and lurk the Chinese divs in too, if you can. Eliminate the encircled divisions as fast as possible and advance into the mainland, while avoiding the mountains. Let the Manchu Inf defend points that are not vital and use their cav well. Don't bother amphibious assault. Once you have reached Guangzhou with your units, the Chinese is basically dead. I have done it in 1939, and I'm only an average player at best.

 

[Lumpy]

Try starting the game in 1936 if all else fails. I've noticed that when I started the game in 1933, it was considerably harder to beat the Chinese, probably because by the time the war started in 1937, they'd already massively expanded their army (unrealistic).

You can beat the Chinese with an army of about 40-50 divisions when you start the war, at least in the 1936 scenario. Encircling Beijing and then advancing down to Nanjing is a cakewalk if you also put the Manchukuo army to good use. Deploy the Manchurian cavalry in your early encirclements around Beijing, then post the Manchurian militias and infantry to defend your front in the west as you advance south. I usually don't do any landings because it takes away manpower from the main front, and it's terribly risky as well since the beachheads could collapse at any time under a moderate assault of pathetic Chinese militias.

Like someone already said, invading China is easier than Barbarossa.

This might hold truth in it for the 1936 start, but I guess you are right and the Chinese just expand their army massively when starting 1933. I've got the general feeling the 1933 start isn't that balanced. I sometimes witness the German AI not going Barbarossa when starting 1933, probably because the SU build up too many divisions.

 

[SaintPony]

I once read but never tried:

Try making a stack of strategic bombers, then bomb China low IC industries. Since China doesn't have an air force, just keep bombing: China will run out of IC to reinforce troops, making it very easy to defeat them.

 

[Lucifer]

How about giving actual hints instead of bragging how easy it actually is to beat the chinese in DH? I was well able to beat the chinese in all other installments of HoI.

This was not bragging, you missed my point. I didn't write saying " that' s easy, I annex China in less than one year, etc. (as I do it)". I wrote to say that people who are very familiar with DH and the forum should stop assuming and propagating the idea that nobody can do what they can' achieve. This is wrong information, even when they have read several times 1- that is is perfectly possible 2- several threads explaining how to do it. My comment had nothing to do with your OP which is "clean"; you are asking for advices.

 

[Sandertje]

Just masspam militia's and you're going to win.

 

[Lucifer]

I once read but never tried:

Try making a stack of strategic bombers, then bomb China low IC industries. Since China doesn't have an air force, just keep bombing: China will run out of IC to reinforce troops, making it very easy to defeat them.

This worked well, too well, in 1.02 when STR where overpowered. Victory could be achieved in 3 months, after it was just cleaning up. With 1.03, it is a waste of resources. A better investment of the IC (among others) would be to invest heavily on ART. Japan won't move fast, but it will defeat China in any fight it chooses to start. Until an opportunity arrives to breakthrough and surround Chines stacks.