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Defensive ideas is useless

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LastSalian

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Jul 28, 2013
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I'm sure there was a post like mine here, but wondering if it will be addressed in the next patch. After ruining my Mughals and Russian campaigns I couldn't figure out what happened. Only now, playing Ardabil->Persia I realize the trick is never picking Defensive and instead picking Quantity. The combination of removing reduced-attrition from Defensive and the increased reinforcement speed, plus reinforce modifiers from missions, it's the receipt to disaster even as Russia. I know, noob discovering the gun powder, but just wanted to point this out. Except for the nasty events from Quantity, it is way superior to Defensive. At the moment, I can't find any usage for Defensive, neither playing tall or whatever.
 
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Quantity first is ok for both attack and defense. The bad events probably is not bad if we average with the good events from Quantity. The reinforce speed go with fighting on homeland, 1st we engage enemy, then withdraw and wait for reinforce then return, the enemy will not reinforce as fast and will lose the 2nd, 3rd engagement. But at first we need to have as much number as we can.

Another use of defensive group is when you just need the 1st 2 idea to get more morale quick for early war for survival and will abandon it later. For the important of morale take a good read here:

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It used to be so good. Matter of fact I always took it first, unless rushing Exploration or maybe Diplomatic if Emperor or something.

Anyone recall what the ideas were say in 2016 or earlier?

First idea was +50% manpower wasn't it? Bigger maintenance discount, morale boost, tradition. It used to be really good. Now I rarely take it but sometimes do, especially on tall-ish runs where I want to max out my defensiveness. Or a nation like Ethiopia where I think the attrition really adds up. Played a Kitara run for Victorian Three and Defensive was quite useful. A very small nation with heavily fortified borders.
 
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To me its a off meta choice and in like 95% of choices its not a first choice mil idea and the policies are horrendous vs the other idea groups but its got its place. Defensive isnt bad by any means can still do what you want. Quantity used to pretty much be the the 150% clear best mil idea group before the changes but people still mess with the others

It does have some cool combos say you specifically want say the Reinforce speed because youre messing with say Banners, the Moral because youre going say France Max Moral build, Fort Defence and Max attrition because youre playing Finland or Switzerland and you want to bleed the AI on forts killing millions on the impossible forts with 0 battles
 
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Let's say we are near the Ottoman or France or Muscovy, and need to mobilize quickly. So get Quantity first two for manpower, then get Defensive first two for morale. Depend on how good we are on war, we can keep Quantity and abandon the Defensive, or we can go with both.
 
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sinisalo said:
Anyone recall what the ideas were say in 2016 or earlier?

First idea was +50% manpower wasn't it? Bigger maintenance discount, morale boost, tradition.
Click to expand...

Defensive ideas never had Manpower. This is what they were 10 years ago.

firefox_WFmKgw6JAJ.png
 
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If you use a policy of attrition along with castles built in strategic places, you can exhaust the other side in terms of manpower without fighting.


  • Defensive-Religious: Edict of Resistance
  • Infrastructure-Defensive: Bolstered Defence Act
 
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William the Merry said:
The issue is castles cost so much and if youre expanding youre constantly building new ones
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Well, if you are strong you need less castle, and build many level 2 castle 1 province between instead of 1 big fort can be more effective. Castles are best to combine with active counter attacks, enemy was spreaded in between sieges, while our army is combined.
 
sinisalo said:
Thanks, yes my mistake. But those are a lot better than what Defensive is now, eh? The associated events were good for tradition too.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. The -50% land attrition was what made it perfect as an alternative to Quantity. Now it's just crap unless playing a minor nation in a rocky or high attrition geography based on the comments here. Anyway, if true still very situational. In my Ardabil run, went Quantity first and succeeded, Defensive made no sense. Now devs please don't takes this as nerf Quantity so Defensive becomes more appealing, instead boost Defensive.
 
People look at me funny when I say Defensive was always my first pick, in the good old days. But that's a fantastic idea group and gave you ascendancy over any nation on the battlefield in the early game, unless they also took it, I guess. When everyone else is at 4 morale, you're at 5. Honestly I had forgotten how good it was, so thanks for posting the image.
 
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