Can AI Intrigue focus get fixed please?

[Lycrist Katkiller]

Hello,
so i came back to play some ck2 after a while and started the usual Norway blob (start of count at the western coast of Norway - Naumdal is my choice - and conquer my way to become King of Norway and reform the Germanic Religion)

Anyways - when the Viking age hit I sent out to settle Iceland.
- I do like this new decision but to me it should not be that quick! -

Well. I granted the duchy of Iceland (Jarldom of Island) to some random lowborn guy who was willing to join my court (as I almost always do with newly conquered titles)

About 3 years later I find out that that bloody stupid cont was spying on my with the intrigue focus and apparently set out vicious rumors about his rightful liege...

There are three things here that actually make me mad:

1. Why the hell is this guy spying on me? He LOVES me, well... he not my lover but I guess you get the point. His opinion of me could not be higher. I mean yes, ok, he's probably the worst character imaginable (envious, arbitrary, deceitful) but still, I would assume some gratefulness for granting him a duchy...

2. So this guy is slandering his rightful liege but can said liege take any justified action? No. If I am spying on one of my vassels or anyone in my realm actually there is a chance of overhearing them slandering their liege (can be myself or if I am spying on a vassel's vassel than it's their liege). This event gives me the option to imprison the character I was spying on (usual those are anying vassels or unwanted sons...). However in this event here, I can do nothing, although that guy is also slandering his liege (me)

3. Finding out about the slandering has no consequences on the -10 opinion modifier. Everyone knows that the rumours I had an imaginary friend called Beppo are lies told by the Jarl of Island - but still everyone things less of me. At some point, when your realm is large enough, you will ALWAYS have that opinion modifier, no matter how Just, Genius, Crusader, Charitable you are, some random count from a province 300 miles away will spy on the Emperor and spread some lies, just because...


Now now... dont get me wrong; I know that I could turn it off AI intrigue focus but I'd prefer if I was nerfed at least to some extend:
1. AI should not spy on anyone or at least not spread lies unless the hate the target (no need for a negative opinion but being an foreigner, infidel, spouse of lover
2. Finding out who spread the lies should allow you to fight back - for example give you the option to make the spy a rival, justified imprison as slanderer and so on
3. Find out who spread the lies should affect the opinion modifier (to some extend)
4. Ordering the spymaster to sheme to increase the chance to find out (maybe it does, dunno) and also give a chance to track the lies back to the origin
5. AI should consider punishment when spying on someone (like they should when using seduction focus, but that's a different story...)

 

[Rags17]

"You want a friend in Washington? Get a dog."

Harry S Truman

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

"You want a friend in Washington? Get a dog."

Harry S Truman

so... I assume you either have a great strategy to avoid it... or do you just turn it off?

 

[FonVegen]

No, I think that meant that humans are both prone to and keen on backstabbing, especially those who are envious, arbitrary, and deceitful. Seriously, he's a man who wants what you have and dislikes you for having things, who doesn't really care about how his actions are received by others, and who's a pathological liar. I would be disappointed if such a person wasn't trying to take me down while also pretending to be my best friend.

As for some of your other points, I can see merit in that. It does irk me that you can't do anything about rumours if you know who's causing them and also expose that to the public. But at the same time, there are going to be those who still believe the lies or just use them as a reason to openly dislike you because they imagine they'll profit from that. That's not how and why it is calculated in the game, of course, but it's how I see it.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

No, I think that meant that humans are both prone to and keen on backstabbing, especially those who are envious, arbitrary, and deceitful. Seriously, he's a man who wants what you have and dislikes you for having things, who doesn't really care about how his actions are received by others, and who's a pathological liar. I would be disappointed if such a person wasn't trying to take me down while also pretending to be my best friend.

As for some of your other points, I can see merit in that. It does irk me that you can't do anything about rumours if you know who's causing them and also expose that to the public. But at the same time, there are going to be those who still believe the lies or just use them as a reason to openly dislike you because they imagine they'll profit from that. That's not how and why it is calculated in the game, of course, but it's how I see it.

yeah, i agree that taking this guy (i admit, i didn't check his traits carefully) was a terrible idea.
But what makes me angry is that there is no (justified) means to fight back - no imprisonment, no rivalry, no "let my axe show you what i think of your lies"...

 

[FonVegen]

Well, you can now antagonize until he's your rival, switch to war focus, and then duel and kill him while roleplaying exactly that last bit happening.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

Well, you can now antagonize until he's your rival, switch to war focus, and then duel and kill him while roleplaying exactly that last bit happening.

so you are basically telling me, that telling lies about me isn't antagonizing enough?
(didn't know about this feature as I don't own HF - yet)

 

[Llyw olaf]

I don't know how it's coded, maybe traits do overrule opinion, but I find it annoying that my +100 opinion spymaster and vassals keep my characters permanently on a -10 opinion penalty for vicious rumours as soon as your realm reaches a decent size. It's similar to my issues with A.I seduction, feels more like A.I spamming the action/button because it can rather than feeling more like different characters with various desires, logic or plans of their own.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

I don't know how it's coded, maybe traits do overrule opinion, but I find it annoying that my +100 opinion spymaster and vassals keep my characters permanently on a -10 opinion penalty for vicious rumours as soon as your realm reaches a decent size. It's similar to my issues with A.I seduction, feels more like A.I spamming the action/button because it can rather than feeling more like different characters with various desires, logic or plans of their own.

The problem seems to me, that the AI does not fear any consequences - and why would they?
There are none. Spying on their liege and spreading lies about him? no problem
Sleeping with their liege's wife? no problem
Having bastards with their liege's daughters? no problem

Although i think that you may execute your spouse and their lover if you find out... but you will often have a hard time finding out

 

[Rags17]

yeah, i agree that taking this guy (i admit, i didn't check his traits carefully) was a terrible idea.
But what makes me angry is that there is no (justified) means to fight back - no imprisonment, no rivalry, no "let my axe show you what i think of your lies"...

so you are basically telling me, that telling lies about me isn't antagonizing enough?
(didn't know about this feature as I don't own HF - yet)

The problem seems to me, that the AI does not fear any consequences - and why would they?
There are none. Spying on their liege and spreading lies about him? no problem
Sleeping with their liege's wife? no problem
Having bastards with their liege's daughters? no problem

Although i think that you may execute your spouse and their lover if you find out... but you will often have a hard time finding out

Have you ever heard of a guy called Donald Trump ? I'm not saying this to start a political fight, I'm just saying that there are some people who throw shit all over the place and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Once people get the idea that you are "Low Energy Jeb" or "Crooked Hillary" then the shit tends to stick.

Fair ? No by a long shot.

Effective ? Hell yeah !

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

Have you ever heard of a guy called Donald Trump ? I'm not saying this to start a political fight, I'm just saying that there are some people who throw shit all over the place and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Once people get the idea that you are "Low Energy Jeb" or "Crooked Hillary" then the shit tends to stick.

Fair ? No by a long shot.

Effective ? Hell yeah !

wtf? yes you can - if you find them (using intrigue focus yourself) slandering you, you can imprision them (justified)

 

[Rags17]

"What are you talking about ? I would never slander you my lord, I love you as I love life itself ! These are obviously lies planted by your enemies to separate and alienate us."

"I pledge on my fathers grave that I would never lie to you, but if you were to ask me I would say that was that bastard Steward Melchet, he's always had it in for you . . ."

 

[Karlington]

wtf? yes you can - if you find them (using intrigue focus yourself) slandering you, you can imprision them (justified)

The "slandering your liege" spying result is a random one and can occur whether they have slandered you or not.

If you discover someone slandering you you get a -50 opinion modifier against them for two years, though, so you can glare angrily at them with great satisfaction for two years.

Seriously, the whole system of negative consequences for actions in CK2 needs some major work. I've had games where my vassals were seemingly competing to see who could murder the greatest amount of my spymasters. I usually discovered who did it, but had no recourse.

You know things are a bit off when murder is not illegal, heh.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

The "slandering your liege" spying result is a random one and can occur whether they have slandered you or not.

If you discover someone slandering you you get a -50 opinion modifier against them for two years, though, so you can glare angrily at them with great satisfaction for two years.

Seriously, the whole system of negative consequences for actions in CK2 needs some major work. I've had games where my vassals were seemingly competing to see who could murder the greatest amount of my spymasters. I usually discovered who did it, but had no recourse.

You know things are a bit off when murder is not illegal, heh.

Known murderer may be imprisoned

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

This is the new low of intrigue focus

 

[knppel]

You could land people with less intrigue- I saw both your exemplary spies having not just average, but very decent stats for generated npc's there.
High Intrigue will, naturally, benefit an eventual spying lifestyle, making events such as vicious rumours on the spying target much more likely.

If you wanna avoid being spied on, don't land people who have decent skills in it

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

You could land people with less intrigue- I saw both your exemplary spies having not just average, but very decent stats for generated npc's there.
High Intrigue will, naturally, benefit an eventual spying lifestyle, making events such as vicious rumours on the spying target much more likely.

If you wanna avoid being spied on, don't land people who have decent skills in it

not sure if i landed this guy... how
HE IS FCKNG content

and also, I am not exactly complaining about the spy-on mechanic but about the fact, that I can't not fight back against such behavior

 

[MateuszS]

I wouldn't bother with that (well, I wouldn't might to see duel option in case of wroth or another hot-headed trait). He doesn't try to kill you or something. The real problem is that if some schemer kills your spymaster, you can't imprison him legally.

 

[Avil]

I usually start a murder spree when I see someone slander me, cleaning realm from every single intrigue focused person. Known murderer? How is it worse than -10 from permanent "vicious rumors"? (only bad for first 10 years until rumors are gone). Also I always have a chance to not be caught killing, while I have no chance to not be slandered.

-10 worldwide opinion for 10 years, and if you find out, who did it, it's only -50 of personal opinion for 2 years. Yeah.

 

[Castios]

This is the new low of intrigue focus

Definately should not happen with content characters with 100 opinion of you..