Beating defensive pacts

[HydroAC]

I'm back in CK2 after a hiatus. I read the 3 volume A History of the Eastern Roman Empire by JB Bury and was inspired to do a CK 2 campaign as Byzantium so I could beat the snot out of Venice before the Crusades.

Starting again, I now remember what a pain Defensive Pacts are, so I'm wondering what I can do to work around them.

Based on what (little) I remember and some research in the forums here is what I came up with:
· Attack big countries not yet in the Defensive Pact via claim throne (or similar). If they are part of the Empire they can’t be in a pact.
· Ignore the Pact and blitz a (very) small country. I haven’t done this as most of my neighbors are pretty big - the little guys have been picked off - but this could work if you have a sizable retinue and can move around quickly. Byzantium could do this as a sea power
· Watch carefully in the outliner if anyone leaves the Pact, then pounce. I’ve noticed this happens semi-randomly, but MUCH less frequently as my threat level increases.
· A gamey trick is to restart the game, which frequently causes AIs to join/leave pacts in a reshuffle. Sometimes a target country leaves
· Look for rebellions, which are not subject to Pacts. Rebellions pop up regularly, and this is good for Holy War against infidels or sniping a province
· Wait for threat to go below 75% so I only have to take on one religion and not the whole bloody map. This is good for smaller sects (such as Shia) that will have fewer defenders. This can be a LONG wait – sitting at 87% threat now in 889 I’ll have to wait almost 5 years.
· Look for new countries which sometimes appear perhaps from a rebellion or religious insurrection. Their threat is zero, so they are a target
· Ask if they want to be a vassal. This only works if they are same religion and/or culture - pretty rare, but worth trying

Anything else?

 

[Andrzej2]

You can turn them off in options.

For me just blitzing through small target works well. He surrenders before major players can help him.

But usually Im just not in a hurry with my expansion and don't have any defensive pacts.

 

[HydroAC]

I specifically left Pacts on in setup. It is kind of like Coalitions in EU4, which is a break against a large Empire like Byzantium from just steamrollering the map.

I forgot a method that I vaguely recall from a previous campaign: set up large vassals such as Kingdoms on my border, and they will declare small wars to grab territory. I remember this happening by accident, where my boarders were growing with no effort on my part. My threat as an Empire is irrelevant if an ambitious vassal wants to increase their holdings.

 

[Zarine]

My strategy : grow big enough to have your vassals do the conquests.
What do you have to do then ? Internal affairs : plot, kill, marry, play inheritance...

 

[HydroAC]

My strategy : grow big enough to have your vassals do the conquests.
What do you have to do then ? Internal affairs : plot, kill, marry, play inheritance...

Yup! Just set up the Kingdom of Anatolia as a viceroyalty so my very loyal vassal with excellent stewardship, decent military skills, and a workable army can beat up on the remaining smaller Sunnis that are nearby.

 

[jwalche]

As a powerful reformed Germanic Norse Emperor of Scandinavia;

I place 1.5~2k each prestige armies on major Francia counties before declaring war on a small member of the pact. Then crush Francia's levy as they pop up on each county. When they still form 3~5k stacks, I crush it with at least 3x size army which are doing siege on counties around. Organizer commanders really help here.

I take my time and keep doing siege on Francia until armies from Lombardy, Byzantium, and even Kazaria and Islam show up. They show up one at a time, with some supply attrition. I put my spy on the path so I can plan to corner each of them with most of my army. Until then I keep their path clean of my smaller units. Sometimes I have to disassemble a levy on an enemy territory but it's better than to be destroyed. If they want to siege a few of your counties on the way, let them.

If a battle turns out bad and your main stack army is being defeated by an enemy army half of my army's size. That's ok. I have already sieged all counties of the small member of the defensive pact that I declared. I can simply force a peace and make them walk all the way back to Constantinople. My army is saved and I can declare on another small member.

When all the major forces are defeated, I spread my army into 1.5~2k pieces and siege all the castles simultaneously. Then I have another 10k stack with an organizer commander sweeping around the country to charge on churches and cities where my smaller armies have already sieged the main castle.

When I am finally all done with almost all of Francia counties, I end the war, and immediately declare to another small member, and siege all the Francia counties again. It's far easier this time. Some of the cities have less than 100 men so even my 2k army just charge on them too.

I found that, after a while, Byzantium and Lombardy are having multiple powerful revolutions that they can't handle with their depleted levy. Maybe it helped that I slayed their dukes and kings, and even a Pope during battles. My commanders often die too. But they are 15 golds each invited from eastern nomadic petty kingdoms and I can just buy more of them. I keep my precious siege and organizer commanders out of battles. Maybe my counselors sowing distrusts on their major duchies helped.

I started this war when Karl finally died and left Francia into pieces. I am on 7th year on this and already the whole world is no longer a threat. Probably this series of wars will last for most of my current ruler's reign. Even after all is done, you can still squeeze them for years with all their rulers and kids ransomed as soon as they have saved enough gold to do anything. Good thing that revolutions are not even in the pact. I have expanded my campaign on northern Lombardy and they help me a lot.

Focus on making them bankrupt by siege and ransom, destroying their levy, and making their empires break down into pieces internally, instead of quickly ending the war and just gaining a few counties.

 

[HydroAC]

Are prestige armies similar to retinue armies? By this I mean standing armies instead of levys.

Are your armies in enemy territory when you start? Maybe I've played too much EU4, where such armies are black flagged.

I can certainly see how this tactic would ruin the country in question between depleted levy and devastation. Sounds like what happened to Byzantium with multiple Persian invasions, wreaking havoc in Anatolia and the near east and setting the stage for the rise if Islam.

 

[jwalche]

Are prestige armies similar to retinue armies? By this I mean standing armies instead of levys.

Are your armies in enemy territory when you start? Maybe I've played too much EU4, where such armies are black flagged.

The army stays as long as I am fighting a war. Declare war to a small ravel state and never end it.
I can stay in territory of my next target's pact members, who are essentially the same pact members of my previous target.... When a war is near end, just move your army out of the next target's territory and send what little left of your levy back home.

I plan ahead so my levy army are all near my boarder already, and I have already been done with my next target and moved away from its counties.

I never asked them to stay royal to their allies. It's their choice of not exiting from the world pact against Sweden.

Karlings could play nice and each of them can just offer me a duchy and send me back to Kazarian or Indian front. Their counties could be saved from being sacked 6 times, with cities burning and holdings destroyed. Lombardy, Byzantium and some far away countries could mind their own business...