As Designed [Balancing] [Religion] In the current state of the game, I avoid to have a religion

[Dissenswurst]

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Summary​

[Balancing] [Religion] In the current state of the game, I avoid to have a religion

Expected Result​

It is fairly easy to satisfy the need for religion and there is a benefit of religion which is big enough to justify the investment and the additionally reduced growth of inhabitants of regions (due to the additional need for religion - religion is imposing a new need on you regions that you otherwise would not have which is in itself already a steep cost).

Actual Result​

I find it extremely cumbersome and expensive to satisfy the need for religion so that the main effect of a religion is that it just hampers the growth of population of religious regions. Compared to the benefit (some culture), the investment is huge. The only way I have found so far to increase the faith to arbitrarily high numbers is the religious scribe. However, to feed a religious scribe, you need two paper from a paper mill. To get the paper, you need two tree trunks. All you get from the religious scribe is 12 faith (and some other stuff which does not make up for the investment). So 4 workers produce 12 faith. 8 of this faith are already needed to satisfy the religious need of these 4 workers 200%, so overall I need 4 workers just to fulfill the religious need of two other pop 200%.

As long this gets not balanced thoroughly (e.g. the output of faith from scribes is at least doubled and/or you get much more culture per religious population), I will never ever choose to have a religion in the game since it just damages my progress.

Steps to reproduce​

Start a game and play good enough to have regions with big populations.
Then just start a religion in the game and see what happens. In the long run, either you can't satisfy the religious need of the population (and the regions growth is damaged) or you have to dedicate a huge part of the population to the production of faith. But then you can't do other things.

To assess an example you can open my attached save game. Go to region "Cenn Müh". 8 of 30 population (more than 25%) is dedicated to the production of faith, and the religious need is fulfilled only 112%. I mean, 8 population to solve a problem which I just wouldn't have without a religion... and I just water down the problem a little bit... and I get just 9.54 culture (of a total of 56.4 culture per turn) from my religious population. To me, this seems ridiculous when compared to the investment. In the current state of the game I would go so far as to destroy religious cities of other nations if they threaten to infect my cities with a religion. But the best countermeasure is to be so far ahead of the computer opponents that religions they start have not enough time to spread before secularization kicks in.

Do I miss something?

Build Number​

1.0.2.F

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Upload Attachment​

View attachment SAVE00060.saveView attachment SAVE00060.save.saveinfo

 

[grotaclas]

A good way to fulfill the faith need is to convert some outposts to castles and build an Abbey in the outpost. Each abbey gives one religious texts which provides 6 faith. The 4 faith which the abbey provides directly is not transferred to the region and instead is used in the outpost to spread your religion to nearby regions. Converting the pops in those regions increases the culture income from your religion

 

[Dissenswurst]

A good way to fulfill the faith need is to convert some outposts to castles and build an Abbey in the outpost. Each abbey gives one religious texts which provides 6 faith. The 4 faith which the abbey provides directly is not transferred to the region and instead is used in the outpost to spread your religion to nearby regions. Converting the pops in those regions increases the culture income from your religion

Thank you for your reply. Indeed, I have not seen this option. (-:

Hm. I just tried it on my save game (bought a pioneer and could build a castle with abbey 2 turns later). To me, this looks like another way of a huge investment for only a small amount of income / problem mitigation (I need my enginering EP already desparately to increase the level of cities and for outposts that shall be absorbed, esp. since the cost of pioneers is increasing steeply (however, the save game is from my first attempt; at that point of time I could have invested in at least one such castle outpost; in newer games this probably won't happen...)), albeit this alternative option helps a little. On the other hand, it has the same problem as the religious scribes: The output is not worth the investment - the main issue is that religion causes problems that I wouldn't have without it in the first place.

In my save game, already all of my population was religious so it was not possible to gain more culture from it (at that point of time). So, at least for me, religion stays an option that I want to avoid, even with the abbeys. Either it has to be much easier to fulfil the religious need, or the culture output must be bigger (or there are additional benefits of another type), or both.

 

[grotaclas]

You don't have to create a new outpost for this. You can convert your existing outposts to castles. Afterwards you can't build trade posts in them anymore, but you can keep the trade posts which you already had.
And you don't just build one abbey. Ideally you have an outpost in a location which is surrounded by several flatland tiles.

In my save game, already all of my population was religious so it was not possible to gain more culture from it (at that point of time).

Did you adopt a religion of another country or did you create your own religion? The bonus culture for the world population goes to the country which owns the birthplace of that religion(up to 30 culture if the whole world follows the religion). So you need to found your own religion to get it. But if a lot of your population already has a different religion, you will not get much culture if you create your own religion, until your population converts to that religion. For these reasons it is usually helpful to create your religion rather early(but not too early, so that you can still fulfill the faith needs).

 

[Dissenswurst]

You don't have to create a new outpost for this. You can convert your existing outposts to castles. Afterwards you can't build trade posts in them anymore, but you can keep the trade posts which you already had.
And you don't just build one abbey. Ideally you have an outpost in a location which is surrounded by several flatland tiles.


Did you adopt a religion of another country or did you create your own religion? The bonus culture for the world population goes to the country which owns the birthplace of that religion(up to 30 culture if the whole world follows the religion). So you need to found your own religion to get it. But if a lot of your population already has a different religion, you will not get much culture if you create your own religion, until your population converts to that religion. For these reasons it is usually helpful to create your religion rather early(but not too early, so that you can still fulfill the faith needs).

I build outposts to absorb them. That and updating the cities (and later removing forests) consumes my engineering XP. Usually, I don't have points left to generate an extra outpost just to fulfil the needs of religion. And I would need at least 5 of them, since that is the minimum number of regions I have that are affected by religion problems, maybe even 6 (at least playing on expert difficulty).

You could say: But why don't you just build cities via culture? Since these cities need to be directly at the border of my regions. They grant by far less extra space (plus, I need to update them to level 2, consuming engineering XP anyway). My regions tend to have 60+ pop (plus extra workers) in the late game so that my regions need to be huge; otherwise, I would be crammed in, making the game much less fun.

And yes, in the save game I founded my own religion, and all of my people were following my own religion. Ok, the only point I could try is to spread my own religion much more to others; that may boost the culture bonus. But I'm still not convinced that this bonus (up to 30 culture) is worth the trouble. Maybe I try a game on the same map, one time I found a religion, another time I don't (both tries starting at the point where you could have a religion). Then I could compare the outcome.

Creating a religion later than possible just to avoid religion problems? Come on.

 

[Dissenswurst]

Another point to take into account: In one of my games, I just chose "Großmeister" (grandmasters?) as my third national spirit. There I have an ideal "Konservatorium" (conservatory?) which grants the ability to build 1 "Konservatorium" (conservatory?) per region. It gives +5 culture and +1 arts EP. That means that I soon will have +30 culture and +6 arts EP per round without great effort (and in the long run even +40 culture and +8 arts EP). And that is by far not all I get from the national spirit "Großmeister".

Compare that to the maximum bonus of religion: +30 culture.

 

[Hastet]

I think this post should be more in the general discussion than in the bug reporting section.

To talk about the pros of religion:

1) Creating and maintaining a religion can block rival empires from achieving a harmony victory. Conversely, you need to found and spread a religion to win a harmony victory.
2) You can found a religion at age 4. Great Masters (the National Spirit that gives Conservatories) is at age 6. You'll be losing out on the culture bonuses of religion for at least two whole ages--even more if you don't pick Theologians at age 4.
3) Abbeys from castle outposts give both religion and luxury, and you can build up to six abbeys if you manage to establish a castle outpost with six flat tiles around it. You can also import paper and then convert it to religious texts for even more faith.
4) If you pick the Theologians at age 4, the bonuses significantly improve the culture gains from religious pops while adding extra religion to satisfy their needs. It also unlocks the monastery, a castle outpost improvement that you can build on hill tiles for a whole load of faith. You can then follow this up with Great Masters at age 6 for even more culture gains.
5) Religion pairs extremely well with vassal-focused governments and national spirits, even without Theologians as your age 4 national spirit. Growing the pops of your vassals will grant you a lot of culture from religious pops, while keeping your region count low will allow you to spend your limited engineering XP on 1 or 2 castle outposts for each region. You can then spend all that culture laying down towns for your vassals (increasing their population cap), further bolstering all the resource gains you get from them.

These reasons are, in my opinion, why religion is pretty strong as it currently stands. The only situation where I cannot see religions as a net benefit is if you spam as many regions as you can integrate. This chokes out the free space you'll need for outposts, as well the engineering points you'll need to upgrade them into castles. It is in this situation where the growth penalties of insufficient faith outweigh the culture benefits of establishing a religion.

 

[Dissenswurst]

I think this post should be more in the general discussion than in the bug reporting section.

Well, I thought it fitted the description of what to report here so I did.
Thank you very much for your in-depth answer. It is quite helpful.

To talk about the pros of religion:

1) Creating and maintaining a religion can block rival empires from achieving a harmony victory. Conversely, you need to found and spread a religion to win a harmony victory.

I have not entered that age yet so I don't know exactly what the conditions are for a harmony victory. Positively speaking, you could also try to win early with a religion. If someone has that goal it may be worth the trouble.

2) You can found a religion at age 4. Great Masters (the National Spirit that gives Conservatories) is at age 6. You'll be losing out on the culture bonuses of religion for at least two whole ages--even more if you don't pick Theologians at age 4.

You're right, there is an inflation during the path of the game. When reading through the Theologians I had the impression of them being rather weak, however, I may misjudge that due to being still too unexperienced. I'm still not sure whether the religion bonus is worth the trouble it causes.

3) Abbeys from castle outposts give both religion and luxury, and you can build up to six abbeys if you manage to establish a castle outpost with six flat tiles around it. You can also import paper and then convert it to religious texts for even more faith.

Still I find it expensive to have an extra outpost per region just to fulfil religion needs.
Please note that I would never have expected that I can build more than one abbey per castle outpost (since abbeys are entities that usually come not as crowded packs... ;-). Maybe that could be stated explicitely in the desciption of the abbey (although it follows the general behaviour of other improvements...).

4) If you pick the Theologians at age 4, the bonuses significantly improve the culture gains from religious pops while adding extra religion to satisfy their needs. It also unlocks the monastery, a castle outpost improvement that you can build on hill tiles for a whole load of faith. You can then follow this up with Great Masters at age 6 for even more culture gains.

Maybe I should just give it a try to experience that in detail. Great Masters, however, are not related to religion. One could take them or something else depending on the needs at that point of the game and style of play.

5) Religion pairs extremely well with vassal-focused governments and national spirits, even without Theologians as your age 4 national spirit. Growing the pops of your vassals will grant you a lot of culture from religious pops, while keeping your region count low will allow you to spend your limited engineering XP on 1 or 2 castle outposts for each region. You can then spend all that culture laying down towns for your vassals (increasing their population cap), further bolstering all the resource gains you get from them.

It is possible to expand vassals with cities, thus increasing their populatin cap? What?!
I would never have expected that. In the infopedias description of vassals there is no hint that this is possible (at least not in the German text). In all of my games so far, all my vassals had no more than 5 pop. No matter how much I raised their prosperity, the output of the vassals stayed tiny in comparison to what I gained from regions (even the sum of more than a dozen vassals output stayed tiny). Ok, that changes the picture completely. I wanted to report a balance issue on vassals as well, but not before playing a mainly vassal-based kingdom to see how it worked out. Without your information, I probably would have lost that game terribly. Maybe now there is a glint of hope for vassals...
The fact that you can expand vassals with cities should be added to the infopedia vassal entry as well as be made more explicit in the tooltip of the culture force "Stadt gründen" (found a city).

These reasons are, in my opinion, why religion is pretty strong as it currently stands. The only situation where I cannot see religions as a net benefit is if you spam as many regions as you can integrate. This chokes out the free space you'll need for outposts, as well the engineering points you'll need to upgrade them into castles. It is in this situation where the growth penalties of insufficient faith outweigh the culture benefits of establishing a religion.

Whether it is strong remains to be seen. However, I admit that it may be more playable than I thought. So far, relying on regions (and only regions; vassals so far proved as useless crap in my games) was the overall result of my gaming experience up to this point. With your info on expanding vassals with cities that may change. (-: We'll see.

 

[Hastet]

It is possible to expand vassals with cities, thus increasing their populatin cap? What?!
I would never have expected that. In the infopedias description of vassals there is no hint that this is possible (at least not in the German text). In all of my games so far, all my vassals had no more than 5 pop. No matter how much I raised their prosperity, the output of the vassals stayed tiny in comparison to what I gained from regions (even the sum of more than a dozen vassals output stayed tiny). Ok, that changes the picture completely. I wanted to report a balance issue on vassals as well, but not before playing a mainly vassal-based kingdom to see how it worked out. Without your information, I probably would have lost that game terribly. Maybe now there is a glint of hope for vassals...
The fact that you can expand vassals with cities should be added to the infopedia vassal entry as well as be made more explicit in the tooltip of the culture force "Stadt gründen" (found a city).

If you look to the upper-right of your screen, you'll see a small window outlining a bunch of details. Scroll down that window, and you'll find a list for vassals. The population of a vassal will come in three colors: white, orange, and red. White means the vassal has room for pops to grow. Orange means it's about to fill up. Red means it's at population cap. If you want a vassal to grow it's pop cap, you need to increase its region level. Each region level allows for the accelerated growth of 5 more pops.

Vassals can do this on their own by eventually building stuff, but they take forever to do so. The fastest way to increase pop cap is to add towns and then upgrade those towns with engineering points. You also need to increase the prosperity of vassals with merchants (+10 per turn) and certain governments (kingdom, feudal monarchy each have a card that gives vassals +5 per turn). More prosperity = more vassal growth + more resources for the vassal = faster vassal border growth = more resources for you.

Heck, even those tiny islands surrounded by water in continental maps are great for vassals, because each water tile gives you so much gold. The only thing you need to do is churn out units to defend them against rebels and barbs, especially during the age of revolutions when huge rebel armies spawn in each region/outpost/vassal around the world.

If you build your empire to settle/conquer/support vassals, they will give you all the gold, knowledge, culture, and improvement points you will ever need. So much so that the pops in my more productive vassals actually outnumber the pops in my homeland. This is when religion REALLY brings in the culture, to the point where I was activating a culture power every 3-5 turns.

 

[Dissenswurst]

I have tried now a strongly vassal-based game with religion (national spirits so far: Olympians, Theologians, Colonialism; governments: vassal-oriented ones). It may be a little bit slower than my strongly region-based games, but if so, then not much slower. I may not play this optimally, since this is against my normal style of play. And it could be that it still gains momentum.

So I take back this issue entirely.

 

[Hastet]

I have tried now a strongly vassal-based game with religion (national spirits so far: Olympians, Theologians, Colonialism; governments: vassal-oriented ones). It may be a little bit slower than my strongly region-based games, but if so, then not much slower. I may not play this optimally, since this is against my normal style of play. And it could be that it still gains momentum.

So I take back this issue entirely.

Nice. Olympians is slower in the early-game to other age 2 national spirits, especially since you'll be spending a lot of culture cards on setting down towns for your many vassals. Once you've built up your vassal infrastructure though, they'll be dumping all the culture you need to constantly spam Olympics every handful of turns. That means wealth, knowledge, and a bunch of domain XP all rolled into one fast-turning bundle.