Autocephalous Pagan Reformation

[Despotism]

It seems to me that Autocephalous is just a weaker form of Hierocratic, considering both heads of religion are duke-tier and will be vassalized if you are king-tier or above when you reform (Which you most likely are if you are reforming the faith). I'm not suggesting that it should be equal in power to the other forms, not everything needs to be equal, but I think Autocephalous should get something in exchange for being weaker than Hierocratic (each kingdom has its own religious head and you are unable to get claims or excommunicate them).

I think it would be cool if autocephalous pagans received free investiture from Catholics, so that it can be the option for people who want the most control over their religious head. Is this a good idea? Does autocephalous reform for pagans even need something else, is it fine as it is?

 

[Zoomun]

As it works the same as Orthodoxy I wouldn't be surprised if when that's reworked autocephalous will be changed too.

 

[Karlington]

It seems to me that Autocephalous is just a weaker form of Hierocratic, considering both heads of religion are duke-tier and will be vassalized if you are king-tier or above when you reform (Which you most likely are if you are reforming the faith). I'm not suggesting that it should be equal in power to the other forms, not everything needs to be equal, but I think Autocephalous should get something in exchange for being weaker than Hierocratic (each kingdom has its own religious head and you are unable to get claims or excommunicate them).

I agree with your general sentiment here.

I think it would be cool if autocephalous pagans received free investiture from Catholics, so that it can be the option for people who want the most control over their religious head. Is this a good idea? Does autocephalous reform for pagans even need something else, is it fine as it is?

I don't quite understand what you are saying here, though. What do you mean by pagans receiving free investiture from Catholics?

As it works the same as Orthodoxy I wouldn't be surprised if when that's reworked autocephalous will be changed too.

Is this something Paradox have announced that they are working on?

 

[Despotism]

I agree with your general sentiment here.



I don't quite understand what you are saying here, though. What do you mean by pagans receiving free investiture from Catholics?





Is this something Paradox have announced that they are working on?

Free investiture is a Catholic mechanic, you can select heirs for your theocratic vassals. With that in mind, you could select an heir for your religious head, given that they start as your vassal.

 

[Karlington]

Free investiture is a Catholic mechanic, you can select heirs for your theocratic vassals. With that in mind, you could select an heir for your religious head, given that they start as your vassal.

Ok, thanks, I get what you mean now.

 

[DPS]

Mechanically, there are no advantages to autocephalous, so it's only going to get picked as a RP thing or (rarely) by the AI (or maybe by players who don't really understand the game mechanics, but I don't think such players will be able to reform their faith anyway). I don't necessarily think that's a problem that needs to be addressed; all the choices don't have to be equally viable mechanically.

 

[Karlington]

It seems to me that Autocephalous is just a weaker form of Hierocratic, considering both heads of religion are duke-tier and will be vassalized if you are king-tier or above when you reform (Which you most likely are if you are reforming the faith). I'm not suggesting that it should be equal in power to the other forms, not everything needs to be equal, but I think Autocephalous should get something in exchange for being weaker than Hierocratic (each kingdom has its own religious head and you are unable to get claims or excommunicate them).

I'd say your estimation is pretty correct. When we compare Orthodox autocephaly vs. Catholic hierocracy then autcephaly can actually be preferable, because rather than having to bow and scrape to some all-powerful Pope in Rome you only have to worry about your own realm's head (or a pentarch for some areas). However, if you manage to vassalize the Pope then hierocracy becomes preferable, since the whole religion is now at the mercy of your vassal.

The issue with paganism is that whoever is able to reform a religion is basically boss of that religion, so it makes little sense for him to choose autocephaly when he could pick hierocracy instead. Or even temporal, if he's not interested in excommunication and so on.

The AI does prefer autocephaly if it reforms Suomenusko, Slavic, Romuva, or Hellenic paganism. Any leadership style can be picked, but for those religions autocephaly is heavily weighted.

 

[Zoomun]

I agree with your general sentiment here.
Is this something Paradox have announced that they are working on?

No but it's one of the top priorities of most fans. Considering Holy Fury added flavor to all the pagans and Catholics the logical path goes to eastern religion like Orthodoxy, Islam and Zoroastrianism. It might not happen but I personally believe that it will.

 

[SSA]

It seems to me that Autocephalous is just a weaker form of Hierocratic, considering both heads of religion are duke-tier and will be vassalized if you are king-tier or above when you reform (Which you most likely are if you are reforming the faith). I'm not suggesting that it should be equal in power to the other forms, not everything needs to be equal, but I think Autocephalous should get something in exchange for being weaker than Hierocratic (each kingdom has its own religious head and you are unable to get claims or excommunicate them).

I think it would be cool if autocephalous pagans received free investiture from Catholics, so that it can be the option for people who want the most control over their religious head. Is this a good idea? Does autocephalous reform for pagans even need something else, is it fine as it is?

By the time you reform something like Romuva or Zunist or Hellenic, you will likely be the only kingdom/empire following your religion, and considering if there are other tribal pagans near you who may request mass conversions; it’s not worth staying Autocrephalous, if you want no religious head and want “all equality”, then go Autonomous and if you want a vassal-pope, get Hierocratic.

My personal recommendation for a no main head of faith is:

Peaceful or Cosmpolitan nature

Meritocracy/Equality
Or
Astrology/Polygamy

And Autonomy.

 

[Karlington]

No but it's one of the top priorities of most fans. Considering Holy Fury added flavor to all the pagans and Catholics the logical path goes to eastern religion like Orthodoxy, Islam and Zoroastrianism. It might not happen but I personally believe that it will.

I'd love to see more work being done on eastern Christian denominations.

 

[Despotism]

Mechanically, there are no advantages to autocephalous, so it's only going to get picked as a RP thing or (rarely) by the AI (or maybe by players who don't really understand the game mechanics, but I don't think such players will be able to reform their faith anyway). I don't necessarily think that's a problem that needs to be addressed; all the choices don't have to be equally viable mechanically.

I'm not saying it needs to be equal from a mechanical standpoint, but I think it should have something to give you a reason to select it. It doesn't even seem appealing from a roleplaying perspective.

There are pros and cons to selecting either Temporal or Hierocratic, and while autonomous is probably objectively worse than the others from a mechanical perspective given the lack of great holy wars and no religious powers, it still has added effects like extra stats and the different branches that can make it fun and worth picking for some players. Autocephalous on the other hand, is a less powerful and clunkier version of hierocratic, with nothing added to make it more interesting.

In short, the reason this is a problem isn't that picking autocephalous should be equal in power to the other leadership forms, it is a problem because hierocratic has every feature autocephalous has, except its better. Picking autocephalous for pagan reformation isn't just shooting yourself in the foot, it is also getting nothing fun or interesting in return.

 

[nightgerbil]

You all seem to be missing the advantage and uses of autocephalous. It allows every king to excommunicate within but only within their own realm, every vassals to request claims: within their own kingdom/under there own liege king. For maintaining realm stabilty within a large empire spread over multiple (byzantine 5?) kingdoms is really fantastic, in fact its almost perfect. Every one of your lesser vassals kings (sweden, lappland, estonia, etc) can now get divorces when they wish if they need them, cos its their own vassals giving it to them. No fear of an obdurate religious head making their bloodline die out.

It prevents minor vassals using religous claims to spread beyond their dejure kingdom and it stops the kings excommunicating each other, you and your family members/heir! that alone is massive!

Also if like me you spread your dynasty and use THEM as your duke/king tier vassals it lets you sit in tanistry/elective gavelkind with no real issues. It doesn't matter if Im now playing the king of norger or if my 8 year old heir gets deposed in a regency from the emporership and is now the vassal queen of wales: I still have my pet religious head and sooner or later I will reinherit the title of emperor: hopefully before the ai does TOO much damage to it ahem.

Its honestly a great tool: but its an allen key not a hammer. Temporal leadership is a hammer, hierocratic is a screwdriver, first is great for a monorelam/small realm, the second is great if your a 2-3 kingdom empire and able to keep all the kingdoms under your own grip. Once you get bigger though? you start looking for more options.

 

[DPS]

You all seem to be missing the advantage and uses of autocephalous. It allows every king to excommunicate within but only within their own realm, every vassals to request claims: within their own kingdom/under there own liege king. For maintaining realm stabilty within a large empire spread over multiple (byzantine 5?) kingdoms is really fantastic, in fact its almost perfect. Every one of your lesser vassals kings (sweden, lappland, estonia, etc) can now get divorces when they wish if they need them, cos its their own vassals giving it to them. No fear of an obdurate religious head making their bloodline die out.[.quote]

How is that an advantage to the player? Why should I care if my vassal kings can get divorces when they want them?

It prevents minor vassals using religous claims to spread beyond their dejure kingdom and it stops the kings excommunicating each other, you and your family members/heir! that alone is massive!

Again, how is that mechanically an advantage to the player? Yes, I think most of us would like to see our vassals just control there de jure lands (there's something satisfying about having the map kept tidy like that) but it's not that big a deal mechanically--just outlaw internal vassal wars (and lots of people find external vassal wars an easy way to expand). And anyway, even if they can't fight each other, vassals make a mess of things with cross-marriages leading to kings inheriting lands outside their de jure boundariles.

[quote[ Also if like me you spread your dynasty and use THEM as your duke/king tier vassals it lets you sit in tanistry/elective gavelkind with no real issues. It doesn't matter if Im now playing the king of norger or if my 8 year old heir gets deposed in a regency from the emporership and is now the vassal queen of wales: I still have my pet religious head and sooner or later I will reinherit the title of emperor: hopefully before the ai does TOO much damage to it ahem.

Its honestly a great tool: but its an allen key not a hammer. Temporal leadership is a hammer, hierocratic is a screwdriver, first is great for a monorelam/small realm, the second is great if your a 2-3 kingdom empire and able to keep all the kingdoms under your own grip. Once you get bigger though? you start looking for more options.

No matter how big I've gotten (and I've had some really big empires, though I've not yet done a WC) I've never seen any reason not to keep control over the religious head of my faith, either by being the head of the faith myself, or having him as a vassal.

 

[Karlington]

No matter how big I've gotten (and I've had some really big empires, though I've not yet done a WC) I've never seen any reason not to keep control over the religious head of my faith, either by being the head of the faith myself, or having him as a vassal.

I mean, he did give numerous reasons in the very post you replied to and quoted. He makes several good points, though I prefer hierocratic to autocephalous religious governance myself, as I think it's preferable on the balance.