Anyone know a reliable way to take merchant republics by war without destroying them?

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nightgerbil

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Jun 7, 2016
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So my norse empress tried an invasion of serbia against the Byzantine empire (child of destiny bloodline) and took everything west of Constantinople EXCEPT ragusa itself as I was trying to get it as a vassal (has tradeposts everywhere). Sadly it awarded me the grand city in the peace treaty so end of the republic and auto destruction of its trade posts.

Now its really hard to do! The requirements for a force vassal war is to follow same religion, so amalfi, ragusa, etc can't be vassalised by war without switching to orthodox. Also with ragusa being under the bzyzs idk how to get them, short of swearing fealty and being elected empress.

I dont even want to THINK about how to get venice, given its not dejure to italy or carinthia so its gonna be impossible to do it diplomatically and you can't share a border with an island?

any tips or things Im missing?
 
Force Vassalization is generally the way to go, temporary switching their culture group (works just as well as faith).

However, since they're already under the thumb of the Byzantine Empire, all you have to do is to conquer the title as a claimant (getting a claim through marriage shouldn't be hard) and you're all set. Afterwards you can destroy the title and even release the vassals you're not interested in.


As for dealing with Venice, I recall pressing the claim of a bastard of one of the five families of a merchant republic once. I can't remember how he acquired the claim (as they are not given to the rulers children as in feudal realms) but possibly his father was an ousted doge who therefor received a strong claim. Anyway, as the bastard had a different dynasty and there already were five patrician families, he didn't become a patrician. This meant that the government of the merchant republic became that of an ordinary republic, but with five patrician families. I don't know how the succession worked (whether if it was patrician elective or simply open elective) but one of the five patricians became doge and with that the republic became a merchant republic again. A similar scenario can play out if you chose a start date where one of the republics is ruled by a non patrician, Venice in the Alexiad for instance. In those cases the republic's succession is that of patrician elective.

Now if the game still functions as described above, you could theoretically invite a claimant for Venice when one pops up, marry him matrilineally to one of you're kinswomen. If his claim is uninheritable, press it and then white peace before waiting for him to die. Lastly, press the claim for one of your claimant kinsmen. As kinsmen (unlike ordinary courtiers) become your vassals once you press their claims, you should hopefully end up with a vassal ordinary republic with five patrician vassal, which will then switch back to a merchant republic after succession. It's up to you if it's worth the headache. And, of course, I offer no guarantees that it actually works.


EDIT: While writing this I got excited to try it out. I started as Barbarossa in 1187 and gave prince Otto a claim on Venice (console commands, obviously). Unfortunately, he became feudal once the war was won (even if he only held the titles Kingdom of Venice, County of Venetzia with the City of Venetzia as capital holding; i.e. no held castles). My previous experience were probably before "governments" had been introduced and feudal, republic and theocracies where distinguished by the type of capital holding (barony, city, temple).

However, the good news is that I was able to use Force Vassalization CB against Venice as the HRE emperor. So a single sea zone probably counts as sharing a border.
 
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You could try to force the person you're pressing the claim for to become Republic by first giving them an ordinary city, right?

Pomerania and Pomeralia has some that can be easily conquered?
 
Even with having the same culture / religion and enough Prestige, Force Vassalising Venice is quite tough, if it has no other land, as then that means you do not border it (since it counts as an island).
 
You could try to force the person you're pressing the claim for to become Republic by first giving them an ordinary city, right?
I can't believe I did't try that :rolleyes:

Unfortunately it resulted in Venice in all patrician families being destroyed (along with their trade posts) and five new dynasties being generated.
 
You could convert to Islam and use the holy war or invasion CB. Depending on your circumstances, this might be easier than culture-converting and force-vassalising.

Caveat: This is theorycrafting, I haven't actually tested it!

(Islamic holy wars and invasions subjugate de jure vassals of the target rather then usurping the titles. In all cases, the target MR would need to be lower-tier and Christian. You could use holy war if all of their holdings and titles are limited to one de jure duchy, or invasion if all of their holdings and titles are limited to one de jure kingdom. NB: holy war works across sea zones, which might make it easier to get in range.)
 
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Within the same religion de Jure claims make them vassal too, right?

It's just kind of useless against Venice since it is it's own Duchy.

Most of the MRs are de jure duchies now - even Amalfi, as of v3.2.

Although I suppose you could use JD's entire-duchy de jure claim if you're the de jure liege. That would work for most of the others (eg. Italy->Genoa, Sicily/Byzantium->Amalfi). Always good to have options!
 
Within the same religion de Jure claims make them vassal too, right?

It's just kind of useless against Venice since it is it's own Duchy.

It says for a dejure claim it gives you the holdings and vassals. So what happens is you get the grand city and the priest vassal becomes your vassal. This destroys the merchant republic with all its trade posts and often its titular title, so it cant be rebuilt. If you can get a same religion and be next door to it you can force vassalise if your both independant. Thats a real trick though. Hard to pull off.
 
Most of the MRs are de jure duchies now - even Amalfi, as of v3.2.

Although I suppose you could use JD's entire-duchy de jure claim if you're the de jure liege. That would work for most of the others (eg. Italy->Genoa, Sicily/Byzantium->Amalfi). Always good to have options!

doesnt work dejure claim will give you their top title. Has to be a force vassal war. That requires same religion.
 
You could convert to Islam and use the holy war or invasion CB. Depending on your circumstances, this might be easier than culture-converting and force-vassalising.

Caveat: This is theorycrafting, I haven't actually tested it!

(Islamic holy wars and invasions subjugate de jure vassals of the target rather then usurping the titles. In all cases, the target MR would need to be lower-tier and Christian. You could use holy war if all of their holdings and titles are limited to one de jure duchy, or invasion if all of their holdings and titles are limited to one de jure kingdom. NB: holy war works across sea zones, which might make it easier to get in range.)


Hmm could work indeed. Remind me though doesn't flicking to islam turn half your courtiers and vassals muslim with you? then flicking back after the war will leave a quarter of the realm with wrong religion penaties?
 
Mh i am wondering - why don't you just inherit it?
Find someone in line of sucession. Land them with an equal or higher title, kill everyone in between.
However i dont know if a foreign leader can be elected doge or if feudal lords can inherit MR at all
 
Mh i am wondering - why don't you just inherit it?
Find someone in line of sucession. Land them with an equal or higher title, kill everyone in between.
However i dont know if a foreign leader can be elected doge or if feudal lords can inherit MR at all

Its a nice trick but not for an MR or a theocracy. I think the easiest approach is to white peace fail the invasion from the save, and come back to it later. An invasion of greece to break the back of the empire and leave it unable to defend itself from a chinese break up invasion for 5k grace should leave the republic independant. After that with the title king of serbia I maybe able to launch a force vassal war. Move capital to county with same culture and culture switch ruler to match the culture of the doge of ragusa and that ought to let me dec the FV war.

I honestly can't think of an alternate approach bar the suggested convert to islam and holy war it. Neither approach is great though, both are messy and will lead to problems. Nothing that cant be fixed, but still.
 
Hmm could work indeed. Remind me though doesn't flicking to islam turn half your courtiers and vassals muslim with you? then flicking back after the war will leave a quarter of the realm with wrong religion penaties?

It probably depends how you flip. If you do { secret religion -> personally adopt faith } then only the player character changes religion.

If you stay different-religion for a long period of time then, when mayors and bishops die, their replacements might match your religion. And your vassals may start converting to your religion without being asked. But both of these processes are pretty slow in my experience.