Anyone fed up with OPMs getting away with their spy spams?

[ywhtptgtfo]

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say. Might be because most of my knowledge about history is mostly self-thaught after EU3 awakened my interest in it (history lessons in austrian schools are 70% "Why we were totaly innocent and justified in surrendering to germany without a proper fight in World War 2", 15% "Why we were victims to midunderstanding and aggression in World War 1" 10% Napoleon and only 5% other stuff), so I might miss out on some details here. Care to enlighten me?

Most countries in the world use an English name that is used historically in English. For instance, your Osterreich is called "Austria" in English and not "Osterreich". Similarly, Germany is not called "Deutschland", China is not called "Zhong Guo", and Spain is not called "Espana". Which is why I commented that the Czechs using the name "Czech [republic]" for their English country name instead of the historic "Bohemia" being "somewhat atypical".

By the way, if 70% of your history lessons is about self-justification regarding the Anshluss and another 15% is about being victims (again!), then I'd imagine there's not much interesting to learn about in the history classes (although I doubt that's really the composition of Austrian history classes). Out of curiosity, what do your history classes say regarding the Austro-Prussian War, Austrian Succession War, Großdeutschland, and the Treaty of Trianon?

 

[CyberEagle]

Nothing, that's the disturbing thing. Well, the education system is currently undergoing massive changes and my little brother DOES learn a more varied history, but I, personally really spend almost a year per type of school learning a slightly different version of World War 2. Let me put it this way: Nobody my age has an idea what a "Holy Roman Empire" is or that it's different from ancient rome, even though it's so important to well, all of german history, which, despite cultural differences is partially our history. Only stuff I can remember learning in school, on top of my head, was who discovered america, that Austria was bigger until WW1, Napoleon, a bare bones version of the cold war, how we got around to using the Schilling instead of the Krone as currency, and the names of a few ancient cultures. All pales before hammering poor excuses for past misdeeds into our heads.
There might be a bunch of things to be proud of in Austria, but the way we treat - or until a few years ago treated - our history is not among them. It's even worse than how germany handles its mistakes; they might overdo it, but at least they acknowledge them.

Did you know that it to until... 2008, I think, until someone had the bright idea that a law that states that people refusing to fight for the third Reich were, in fact, heroes of Austria and not to be treated as desertes might be an bright idea?

All in all, while I might have exaggerated a bit, when I still was in school, you only started to learn anything interesting at all about history until the higher levels of education (where I, sadly, had to drop out of personal reasons unrelated to my intelligence, which I don't want to share with strangers) and before that only the bare minimum the average person should know.

Edit: About your explanation. I get what you were saying. I was just confused because I generally considered Bohemia and the modern Czech Republic to be two completly different constructs.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Nothing, that's the disturbing thing. Well, the education system is currently undergoing massive changes and my little brother DOES learn a more varied history, but I, personally really spend almost a year per type of school learning a slightly different version of World War 2. Let me put it this way: Nobody my age has an idea what a "Holy Roman Empire" is or that it's different from ancient rome, even though it's so important to well, all of german history, which, despite cultural differences is partially our history.

To tell the truth, none of my history classes (the mandatory ones at least), dealt with the HRE or Germany history. However, we did talk quite a bit about the origin of our relatively young country (Canada) and covered quite a bit about WWI and WWII. Sadly, there was little about the Seven Years War, American Revolution, and the War of 1812, which were events that really kicked start the nascent colonies that eventually constitute our country.

But just as you said there's a "different version" of WWI/II history to learn, the stuff taught in Canada has a distinctively pro-West (pro-British) bias. Most of the people I talked to think WWII is a good vs. evil war where USA came to save the day (wut?).

There might be a bunch of things to be proud of in Austria, but the way we treat - or until a few years ago treated - our history is not among them. It's even worse than how germany handles its mistakes; they might overdo it, but at least they acknowledge them.

Germany is probably atypical in terms of its capacity for self-critique (albeit it's probably imposed upon them by the West to prevent them from pulling another "backstabbing" story). Countries like Japan still teach their young about how glorious they are in WWII and how they did no wrong. They even built a shrine for their cultural equivalent of Goring, Gobbels, and such where their head of states would regularly go on visits to pay respect.

Did you know that it to until... 2008, I think, until someone had the bright idea that a law that states that people refusing to fight for the third Reich were, in fact, heroes of Austria and not to be treated as desertes might be an bright idea?

Well, what's wrong with that?

All in all, while I might have exaggerated a bit, when I still was in school, you only started to learn anything interesting at all about history until the higher levels of education[/quote]The average high school teachers is not really that bright, so university is really the place where you learn anything interesting.

Edit: About your explanation. I get what you were saying. I was just confused because I generally considered Bohemia and the modern Czech Republic to be two completly different constructs.

How is it Czech Republic and Bohemia more different than modern Poland and the PLC? What about the various forms of China in the modern era?

 

[CyberEagle]

The average high school teachers is not really that bright, so university is really the place where you learn anything interesting.

Yeah, but we literally didn't cover anything of any importance but a biased version of WW2. That weirds me out to no end.

Well, what's wrong with that?

I think I didn't state that in a clear enough manner (Edit: Or maybe it's the "took" I forgot that makes it easy to misunderstand. Oops): Until for years ago, someone who resisted Nazi Germany (and was still alive today) was to be treated as traitor to Austria, by law. In fact, my aunt, who lived her childhood back then told me once that people actually WERE still shunned as traitors for not doing what the oh-so-eeeeviiil regime that "forced" itself wanted... years after we were freed from it again.

What I'm saying is that Austria a) could admit that it made errors. Damn, nobody of a younger generation is to blame for the mistakes of earlier ones, but one can at least have the balls to say "Yeah, my ancestors did a few shitty things) and that b) History Lessons are too focused on things in the past century. It's kinda awkward when your teachers for the german language or religion try to tell you stuff about their specific subjects past that you can't understand because your history teacher never got around to give you the details.

Though I agree, I might ask a bit much from the lower leves of education. Still, it should be a BIT broader than what I experienced.

 

[Kurblius]

Back in highschool, we had two history teachers of note: a feminist flower-child of the hippie era, and a terrifying Austro-German chauvinist. I tell you, the tension when they were in a room together was palpable, but they certainly enlivened the subject matter.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Yeah, but we literally didn't cover anything of any importance but a biased version of WW2. That weirds me out to no end.

I think I didn't state that in a clear enough manner (Edit: Or maybe it's the "took" I forgot that makes it easy to misunderstand. Oops): Until for years ago, someone who resisted Nazi Germany (and was still alive today) was to be treated as traitor to Austria, by law. In fact, my aunt, who lived her childhood back then told me once that people actually WERE still shunned as traitors for not doing what the oh-so-eeeeviiil regime that "forced" itself wanted... years after we were freed from it again.

It's really a matter of perspective. A controversial subject in Austria is whether or not the Austrians were actually in favour of the Anshluss. The "canonical version" of history categorized the Anshcluss as a forced annexation, although there are perspectives that state it could also viewed as a union that has significant popular support.

With the current knowledge that the nazi's massacred millions of Poles, Jews, gypsies, and homosexuals, etc, of course it is convenient to say these guys deserted a morally-corrupt cause. But back then, the genocide was not that well-known and the German invasion is simply viewed as either a war of restoration (after all, it has many cores in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Austria) or a war of aggression. If some of those deserters deserted simply because they didn't want to be in the army, then are they really heroes or deserters? I know little about this matter, so it's a genuine question rather than a rhetorical question.

What I'm saying is that Austria a) could admit that it made errors. Damn, nobody of a younger generation is to blame for the mistakes of earlier ones, but one can at least have the balls to say "Yeah, my ancestors did a few shitty things) and that b) History Lessons are too focused on things in the past century. It's kinda awkward when your teachers for the german language or religion try to tell you stuff about their specific subjects past that you can't understand because your history teacher never got around to give you the details.

WWI and WWII are really wars of imperialism where the villains are dictated by the victors. If the allies kept Austria-Hungary intact and dissolved Bismarck's union of German states, then WWII would've been less likely to occur.

But obviously, if Austria had successfully dealt with its Hungarian and Slavic minorities (i.e. assimilated them or made them very happy through tolerance), then it would've stayed intact and the term "Austrian" would've been a term of nationality instead of a label for a subtype of Germanic people.

Back in highschool, we had two history teachers of note: a feminist flower-child of the hippie era, and a terrifying Austro-German chauvinist. I tell you, the tension when they were in a room together was palpable, but they certainly enlivened the subject matter.

One of my high school history teachers is a German Canadian. She said people used to call her and her sibilings "little nazi's". I asked her what she felt about Germany losing the world wars and she said "I am a Canadian".

 

[TheMcD]

Well, this thread went somewhere different. My 20 cents regarding the school system from a young German's perspective: A year or two ago, in the higher grades of the Gymnasium, we spent a lot of time on the 1900-and-later era. I stopped taking our priorities seriously after we spent months, maybe an entire YEAR over the span of a couple grades, discussing the Nazi atrocities in great detail, we had a Holocaust survivor brought in to talk about his experiences and we visited Dachau. And yet, we didn't spend nary a thought about the horrible things Stalin was causing in the Soviet Union. At times, I almost felt like comparable atrocities were being intentionally ignored. It was weird.

To actually talk about the topic for a second: The reason a lot of people recommend vassalization rather than just going flat-out annexation is that the OPMs in question are very often in the HRE - at least that was my experience - and as such they can't be annexed without drawing the attention of the Emperor and eventually either reinstating the bugger or taking a stab hit. It's a pain, and vassalizing the nation makes it all so much easier.

 

[CyberEagle]

WWI and WWII are really wars of imperialism where the villains are dictated by the victors. If the allies kept Austria-Hungary intact and dissolved Bismarck's union of German states, then WWII would've been less likely to occur.

Hey, I'm not saying that we were evil, just that the result was terrible.
The fact that Austria-Hungary was already waiting for an excuse to attack Serbia for quite some time and just had the matter escalate strangely never got mentioned by anyone who tried to teach me about the subject is still strange though, and reinforces my belief that we realy love to see ourselfs as victims.

Well, this thread went somewhere different

Heh. Sorry. But I just enjoy a discussion about all things around history, every know and then! If I wasn't interested in it, I wouldn't still play EU3, and on top of that, I almost always walk away knowing more than I did before.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Well, this thread went somewhere different. My 20 cents regarding the school system from a young German's perspective: A year or two ago, in the higher grades of the Gymnasium, we spent a lot of time on the 1900-and-later era. I stopped taking our priorities seriously after we spent months, maybe an entire YEAR over the span of a couple grades, discussing the Nazi atrocities in great detail, we had a Holocaust survivor brought in to talk about his experiences and we visited Dachau. And yet, we didn't spend nary a thought about the horrible things Stalin was causing in the Soviet Union. At times, I almost felt like comparable atrocities were being intentionally ignored. It was weird.

Heh. That's a whole different level of historical understanding. I'd suggest you to follow this author, he says a lot of interesting perspectives on world politics and history, although I don't agree with everything he says: http://ericmargolis.com/

IMO, the level of attention devoted to a massacre event has a lot to do with who are the victims. In the case of the Holocaust, it involved the financially and politically powerful Jewish cultural group who have strong ties to the Hollywood and American media and have many numbered among the intellectual elites (i.e. Lise Meitner and Albert Einstein). As a result, their complaints would be comparably louder than that of the Poles (whom nobody really cared about), Gypsies (ditto), and other cultural groups.

Another factor that matters is the accessibility of the survivors and crime scene. I'd imagine survivors of the Soviet massacres are far fewer and the sites of their suffering are close to Western media.

Hey, I'm not saying that we were evil, just that the result was terrible.
The fact that Austria-Hungary was already waiting for an excuse to attack Serbia for quite some time and just had the matter escalate strangely never got mentioned by anyone who tried to teach me about the subject is still strange though, and reinforces my belief that we realy love to see ourselfs as victims.

Oh yeah. Austria is just as greedy as every other imperial power. The only difference is that its leadership (Habsburgs) were so bad that they lost practically every notable war they were involved in (I hope you don't mind me saying that).

By the way, what do you guys think of Kari I of Austria and the recently-deceased Prince Otto?

 

[CyberEagle]

bad that they lost practically every notable war they were involved in (I hope you don't mind me saying that).

Eh, the troops close to its core lands were pretty awesome, as far as I know, but yeah, during actual wars it suffered terribly from bad leadership and soldiers neither understanding the language of their officers, nor half the other soldiers (now THAT's a penalty for a non-accepted culture, huh?)

By the way, what do you guys think of Kari I of Austria and the recently-deceased Prince Otto?

Otto was an interesting person. I was once told that he actualy fought pretty hard for the relase of austria after World War 2 (it was occupied by the allies for ten years), but he still was baned from entering the country by the "Habsburg Law" for most of his life.

"Kari of Austria".. never heard of that name. Do you mean Karl (with a "L") of Habsburg, the politician? Oh, sorry, I meant "Karl Habsburg-Lothringen" Noble Titles are forbidden here; except if your house is less important than the Habsburgs, then suddenly nobody cares to enforce it. Don't quite like him and am generally not all that into modern politics, but at least he's affiliated with a somewhat sane party..

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Eh, the troops close to its core lands were pretty awesome, as far as I know, but yeah, during actual wars it suffered terribly from bad leadership and soldiers neither understanding the language of their officers, nor half the other soldiers (now THAT's a penalty for a non-accepted culture, huh?)

I am not that into military science/history, so I can't really tell. But the impression I get is that the Austrian troops simply melt before anyone, be it German/Prussian, French, Serbian, or Italian. I wonder if it's the same problem as the Ottoman Janissary, which were decent troops at start but became useless as people at the top started getting lazy and useless.

As for "non-accepted culture", there are many countries that use troops from various ethnic groups. The British Empire had Indians and Africans, the French had its famed foreign legion (which many believed were great because they aren't actually French ), the Chinese had its large collection of sub-ethnic groups ("Han" itself is as broad in compass as "European", although it does exclude "barbarian" cultures).

Otto was an interesting person. I was once told that he actualy fought pretty hard for the relase of austria after World War 2 (it was occupied by the allies for ten years), but he still was baned from entering the country by the "Habsburg Law" for most of his life.

"Kari of Austria".. never heard of that name. Do you mean Karl (with a "L") of Habsburg, the politician? Oh, sorry, I meant "Karl Habsburg-Lothringen" Noble Titles are forbidden here; except if your house is less important than the Habsburgs, then suddenly nobody cares to enforce it. Don't quite like him and am generally not all that into modern politics, but at least he's affiliated with a somewhat sane party..

Yes, I thought I typed Karl, but my finger slipped. He's Otto's papa and the one who begged to be made emperor again. He did seem like a decent enough person, but then his circumstance didn't really allow him to be as crude as his predecessor (did he actually have an affair with Sophie?).

 

[CyberEagle]

Thought about the younger Karl, who's still alive, actually. Karl/Charles isn't a terribly rare name, y'know.
Will give a better thought-out answer when I'm not sleep-deprived. Fun discussion, though.
Austrian Troops: The ones in the Austrian and Bohemian regions were pretty badass, but really didn't manage having different cultures not as well as others, as seen in the one battle were the troops accidently killed each other off, three days before the Ottomans arrived.

 

[CassCD]

Um . . . so yeah, about spies, in my game, the Swiss and Austrians in particular, are pissing me off to no end, so much so that I've taken up Vetting. It's proven to be quite effective. A lot less buildings to rebuild than there were before I took on the NI. Damn bug.

 

[Frozensky]

Yeah, there's lots of things you can do to strengthen your country against spies, if it's that big a deal you can do those.

That's not minmaxing but it's certainly not the game's fault if you leave yourself wide open to it.

 

[Rotten Venetic]

The average high school teachers is not really that bright, so university is really the place where you learn anything interesting.

Nah, everything interesting I learned was from documentaries and reading outside of school. Freaking college was just as useless as freaking high school.

On topic, just grab Vetting or whatever it's called in your mod; there's always a ni with spy defence (yes you can still have an economy if you go military drill and vetting as your first two NIs, and you'll kick some righteous arse).

 

[brxbrx]

A peace settlement that nerfed their spy production for a time and/or prevented them using them on you for a time would be an interesting idea...

I don't know anything about programming this game and don't know if it'd work, though.

Yes! Also, it'd be nice if such a CB were to be considered "understandable," so that DoFs and HREs wouldn't intervene.

 

[Rotten Venetic]

No to the understandable bit, unless you somehow make it impossible to demand territory or annexation with this CB. Some of us have no problem eating 8 infamy for Lübeck or Venezia f.e. if we get a mission to take it and get a core. Venice is the best damn province in the game but still the AI Venice manages to get smacked down to OPM a fair number of times.

 

[unmerged(204522)]

To tell the truth, none of my history classes (the mandatory ones at least), dealt with the HRE or Germany history. However, we did talk quite a bit about the origin of our relatively young country (Canada) and covered quite a bit about WWI and WWII. Sadly, there was little about the Seven Years War, American Revolution, and the War of 1812, which were events that really kicked start the nascent colonies that eventually constitute our country.

But just as you said there's a "different version" of WWI/II history to learn, the stuff taught in Canada has a distinctively pro-West (pro-British) bias. Most of the people I talked to think WWII is a good vs. evil war where USA came to save the day (wut?).

Germany is probably atypical in terms of its capacity for self-critique (albeit it's probably imposed upon them by the West to prevent them from pulling another "backstabbing" story). Countries like Japan still teach their young about how glorious they are in WWII and how they did no wrong. They even built a shrine for their cultural equivalent of Goring, Gobbels, and such where their head of states would regularly go on visits to pay respect.

Well, what's wrong with that?

All in all, while I might have exaggerated a bit, when I still was in school, you only started to learn anything interesting at all about history until the higher levels of education

The average high school teachers is not really that bright, so university is really the place where you learn anything interesting.

How is it Czech Republic and Bohemia more different than modern Poland and the PLC? What about the various forms of China in the modern era?[/QUOTE]did you hear about the american who thought WW2 was an expamnsion for world of warcraft?

 

[unmerged(204522)]

they elected him president.....

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

did you hear about the american who thought WW2 was an expamnsion for world of warcraft?

Really? I should Google that. By the way, parts of what you quoted in your post were not even written by me.