1509: The naval Battle of Diu

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The issue is this early we're talking about individuals who really were effectively a slave army of the Sultan with this being their position for the rest of their lives. A crucial point is they were indoctrinated to the be loyal to the Ottoman Sultan, and its not like they could just go and hire themselves out for mercenary service.

I don't see why. I think this is just an assumption and given that the Portuguese primary sources are riddled with mentions of "Rumes" serving as mercenaries in the Indies I think it's an innacurate one. Now don't get me wrong. I don't think that every "Turk" or "Rumes" serving in an Indian kingdom was an actual Jannisary.

Eventually by the 19th century a substancial portion of those designated on the Jannisaries payroll were not even serving in the Ottoman military, but this is a totally different situation than around 1500. Basically it involved a progression of corruption where the Jannisaries got concession everytime they supported a male heir from the Sultan's many wives as the rightful Sultan. (A surprising element of Ottoman History was the oldest male was not considered to be automatically the rightful heir to the throne, so civil wars were actually extremely common, albeit frequently on a limited scale once the military decided which candidate to support.)

I'm actually pretty familiar with this. I've been heavily studying Ottoman history these past few weeks and have gone through about half a dozen Ottoman history books so far. Although, it isn't actually on account of this debate. It's really for my mod.

The point is Jannisaries would only have gone out to support another military force on the Sultan's orders. Any Jannisary who served as a mercenary with some other military force would be considered to have engaged in treason against the Sultan and presumably would have been executed if not tortured first if caught. Any Jannisary still part of his unit would have to dessert in order to join a mercenary force and definately would have been executed if caught doing this.

Its not impossible that a single Jannisary deserted at some point even during the early period, but you're talking about individuals taken from their parents at a young age, and then converted to Islam and indoctrinated to be absolutely loyal to the Sultan. They could potentially rise to higher positions in the Ottoman government than merely soldiers, but their honor and prestige was entirely in being part of this force serving the Sultan. Since they were generally pretty well taken care of materially, deserting or even leaving the Ottoman Empire to seek a career as a mercenary simply wouldn't be generally attractive since they giving up so much for the mere prospect of gaining some material wealth.

I disagree with this assumption. I think they would leave. The fact is from an individual Jannisary's perspective the grass really was greener on the other side so to speak. The fact is that they were well paid in the Indies and usually given land too. Essentially they lived like nobles in the Indies. They were highly respected and feared and Indian rulers gave them quite a bit.

Now I'm not going to argue that working as a Jannisary was a bad deal and so they left because it was lousy. But the fact is that they had more to gain by going east. I don't think they were mindless zombies. I think they still thought for themselves and often DID decide to go east instead as is heavily supported by an abundance of primary source information.

 

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Perhaps a better way to approach this point of the debate would be for you to explain why you tihnk Jannisaries would not be to go east and hire themselves out as mercenaries?

I already did, at the time they were a body just about 4.000 strong, and the personal retinue of the Sultan, raised from childhood to serve him. You can always argue that some individual could in fact desert and go East, but certainly not any sizeable body of men.
Besides, it is on you who falls the burden of prove, I remember you that
1) You first stated that Jannisaries served in Egypt as mercennaries
2) Then you added the numerous time Rumi are quoted serving to Indian princes.
However you have no primary sources on Jannisaries serving in India, only Rumi, and this is translated as a national name for Turks.
Besides, Rumi in Indian armies are always portrayed as artillery specalist, that is why they wer so highly regarded, and that is not the trade of a Jannisary.

 

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I already did, at the time they were a body just about 4.000 strong, and the personal retinue of the Sultan, raised from childhood to serve him. You can always argue that some individual could in fact desert and go East, but certainly not any sizeable body of men.

None of the several Ottoman history books I've read recently or am in the process of reading give a figure anywhere near this small for the beginning of the 16th century. They list Jannisary totals for the time period in question in the tens of thousands and also point out that they were substantially increased in size during Suleyman's reign. In addition to this they point out that the Sultan's army of Jannisaries were in the tens of thousands and that the Jannisaries were consistently used to garrison fortresses in the various provinces of the Ottoman empire in addition to this. This makes Janissary totals for the 16th century under 20,000 extremely improbable. I see little difficulty with groups of Jannisaries skipping town because they were stationed in some boring frontier province and figured they'd have better luck going east. Seems a likely possibility to me. But what I'm really interested in is if you have any info or logic that would make this impossible or at least extremely unlikely. Why couldn't they just quit and go east?

Besides, it is on you who falls the burden of prove, I remember you that
1) You first stated that Jannisaries served in Egypt as mercennaries

That wasn't me. I think you got another poster's claims confused with my own.

2) Then you added the numerous time Rumi are quoted serving to Indian princes.

"Rumes"

However you have no primary sources on Jannisaries serving in India, only Rumi, and this is translated as a national name for Turks.

Indeed. Most of the primary sources are still only in Portuguese, which is why I reccommended reading F. C. Danver's "The Portuguese in India."

Besides, Rumi in Indian armies are always portrayed as artillery specalist, that is why they wer so highly regarded, and that is not the trade of a Jannisary.

Often Turkish founderers or artillary men did serve in the East, but they certainly were not the bulk of them.

 

[Sanjar]

None of the several Ottoman history books I've read recently or am in the process of reading give a figure anywhere near this small for the beginning of the 16th century. They list Jannisary totals for the time period in question in the tens of thousands and also point out that they were substantially increased in size during Suleyman's reign. In addition to this they point out that the Sultan's army of Jannisaries were in the tens of thousands and that the Jannisaries were consistently used to garrison fortresses in the various provinces of the Ottoman empire in addition to this. This makes Janissary totals for the 16th century under 20,000 extremely improbable.

Sorry to say, you might be reading the wrong books . That the Janissary corps was huge in the early 16th century is a widely repeated snippet of information. Unfortunately it is also wholely erroneous.

As I've quoted elsewhere the entire Janissary corps in 1527, the year after Suleiman's decisive victory at the battle of Mohacs, stood at 11,439. Of those only 7,886 were actual front-line combat troops, the rest were young cadets in training. The numbers didn't rise substantially above 20,000 ( including cadets ) until the final quarter century of the 16th, when it expanded from ~21,000 in 1574 to ~45,000 in 1597.

More accurate numbers like those cited above can be gleaned from, among other sources, Ottoman Warfare, 1500-1700 by Rhoads Murphy ( 1999, Rutgers University Press ).

- Sanjar

 

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Sorry to say, you might be reading the wrong books . That the Janissary corps was huge in the early 16th century is a widely repeated snippet of information. Unfortunately it is also wholely erroneous.

As I've quoted elsewhere the entire Janissary corps in 1527, the year after Suleiman's decisive victory at the battle of Mohacs, stood at 11,439. Of those only 7,886 were actual front-line combat troops, the rest were young cadets in training. The numbers didn't rise substantially above 20,000 ( including cadets ) until the final quarter century of the 16th, when it expanded from ~21,000 in 1574 to ~45,000 in 1597.

More accurate numbers like those cited above can be gleaned from, among other sources, Ottoman Warfare, 1500-1700 by Rhoads Murphy ( 1999, Rutgers University Press ).

- Sanjar

Even the number of 7.886 is an inflated one for front-line troops, as here administrative personnel and palace service personnel that were not trained as soldiers are included, a muster roll of 1541, when the Jannisary Corps stablishment was already around 12.000, showed just 6.350 Jannisaries present in the field army, and 4.000 is an average estimation for early XVI century, so as Sanjar says, you are reading the wrong books, no wonder you took the impression that Jannisaries could easily desert, but that is not the case.

 

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"Rumes"
Often Turkish founderers or artillary men did serve in the East, but they certainly were not the bulk of them.

They are called "Rumi" in Indian sources. According to Jos Gommans "Mughal Warfare" Rumi were employed as military architects and artillerists, ie as very especialized workers, and that is why they were so highly paid. Mughal and Afghan armies in India used fire armed infantry from defensive positions in all battles, but they had among all the troops the lowest consideration and got the lowest salaries, Muslim armies in India were basically Horse Archers armies.

 

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Sorry to say, you might be reading the wrong books . That the Janissary corps was huge in the early 16th century is a widely repeated snippet of information. Unfortunately it is also wholely erroneous.

As I've quoted elsewhere the entire Janissary corps in 1527, the year after Suleiman's decisive victory at the battle of Mohacs, stood at 11,439. Of those only 7,886 were actual front-line combat troops, the rest were young cadets in training. The numbers didn't rise substantially above 20,000 ( including cadets ) until the final quarter century of the 16th, when it expanded from ~21,000 in 1574 to ~45,000 in 1597.

More accurate numbers like those cited above can be gleaned from, among other sources, Ottoman Warfare, 1500-1700 by Rhoads Murphy ( 1999, Rutgers University Press ).

- Sanjar

And does this number include all the Jannisaries that were garrisoned in fortresses all over the empire? I'll comment on this in more detail when I can use my books AND have a computer in front of me that can access the interent.

 

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Even the number of 7.886 is an inflated one for front-line troops, as here administrative personnel and palace service personnel that were not trained as soldiers are included, a muster roll of 1541, when the Jannisary Corps stablishment was already around 12.000, showed just 6.350 Jannisaries present in the field army, and 4.000 is an average estimation for early XVI century, so as Sanjar says, you are reading the wrong books, no wonder you took the impression that Jannisaries could easily desert, but that is not the case.

But this isn't taking into account all the Jannisaries that garrisoned fortresses all over the empire either. I'm inclined to believe that garrison Jannisaries would be the much more likely ones to go east.

 

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They are called "Rumi" in Indian sources. According to Jos Gommans "Mughal Warfare" Rumi were employed as military architects and artillerists, ie as very especialized workers, and that is why they were so highly paid. Mughal and Afghan armies in India used fire armed infantry from defensive positions in all battles, but they had among all the troops the lowest consideration and got the lowest salaries, Muslim armies in India were basically Horse Archers armies.

There were alot more Indian states than just the Mughals who employed Turkish mercenaries.

 

[Sanjar]

And does this number include all the Jannisaries that were garrisoned in fortresses all over the empire?

Yes. In 1527 the total Ottoman standing army lists at 18,689 - 11,439 Janissaries, 5,088 calvary, 2,162 in the artillery corps.

The great, great bulk of the Ottoman military at that point consisted of the timariot provincial levies - ~90,000 troops in 1527. To them could be added a still substantial, but steadily declining number of akinci, essentially mercenary light calvary - some thousands at least, possibly at this point still in the low tens of thousands. Plus ~3,500 troops in provincial governor bodyguard units.

At that point in time Janissaries werre probably not heavily used for distant backwater garrison duty. They were far too expensive and scarce to fritter away in that manner, when provincial levies were available to take up the slack. As time went on and the corps expanded, they were more and more used in such a fashion - in 1670 out of a total of 53,849 Janissaries, 14,379 were assigned to provincial garrisons.

Basically, though I can well believe 17th century, provincially stationed Janissaries wandering off to become soldiers for hire, the situation was very different in the first half of the 16th century.

- Sanjar

 

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But this isn't taking into account all the Jannisaries that garrisoned fortresses all over the empire either. I'm inclined to believe that garrison Jannisaries would be the much more likely ones to go east.

Jannisaries were not used as garrison troops until XVII century, they were so conscius as to be the personal servitors of the Sultan that as late as 1594 in the Györ campaign a Jannisary detachment refused to serve to the orders of Koca Sinan Pasha as they were used to serve as a single body under the direct orders of the Sultan.

 

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There were alot more Indian states than just the Mughals who employed Turkish mercenaries.

I said Mughals and Afghans, Rajputs states or Vijayanagara are unlikely to hire turks, as they were "pagans", anyway all that is irrelevant unless you have any primary source citing "jannisaries" in India, which you don´t.

 

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I said Mughals and Afghans, Rajputs states or Vijayanagara are unlikely to hire turks, as they were "pagans", anyway all that is irrelevant unless you have any primary source citing "jannisaries" in India, which you don´t.

Hmm. Well I guess I could rummage through Danvers but it's alot of reading. And yes pagans did hire Turks.

 

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Jannisaries were not used as garrison troops until XVII century, they were so conscius as to be the personal servitors of the Sultan that as late as 1594 in the Györ campaign a Jannisary detachment refused to serve to the orders of Koca Sinan Pasha as they were used to serve as a single body under the direct orders of the Sultan.

I been reading Babinger's "Mehmed the Conqueror" lately and he has a good number of references of Mehmed II using Janissaries as garrisons. Also Colin Imber's, I forget the name of his book, but he mentions Buda having a few thousand Janissaries as garrisons. Another one I know of was the Portuguese campaign in Ethiopia. Where Adal was sent Janissaries that garrisoned south west Arabia. So I don't buy your claim here. I've read too much to the contrary. Sorry I can't give specific citations but I'm still waiting for the internet I ordered to kick in. I'm on my brother-in-law's comp right now.

 

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At that point in time Janissaries werre probably not heavily used for distant backwater garrison duty.

I haven't found any evidence for this either. It's the frontier provinces that seem to be where they are used as garrisons.

 

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I been reading Babinger's "Mehmed the Conqueror" lately and he has a good number of references of Mehmed II using Janissaries as garrisons. Also Colin Imber's, I forget the name of his book, but he mentions Buda having a few thousand Janissaries as garrisons. Another one I know of was the Portuguese campaign in Ethiopia. Where Adal was sent Janissaries that garrisoned south west Arabia. So I don't buy your claim here. I've read too much to the contrary. Sorry I can't give specific citations but I'm still waiting for the internet I ordered to kick in. I'm on my brother-in-law's comp right now.

I think you confuse an occupation force with a garrison. After the 1541 campaign 22.000 troops were left in Hungary, of which 2.126 were Jannisaries, but that is an occupation force, not a regular garrison, and they were retired a few years later. Anyway we are entering already second half of the XVI century, and I admit I was too rigid in my previous remark, the Janissary corps was enlarged quite considerably in the second half of the XVI century and regular garrisons could well have been established by then.So I will be back to my initial point, that no sizeable force of Jannisaries was ever hired in India in the first half of the XVI century, there are no mention of Jannisaires that I know in Indian sources, only Rumi, and the character of the Jannisary corps and their size at that period makes it highly improbable anyway.

 

[Dark Knight]

Please write responses to multiple posts within a single post of your own, rather than making several short posts in a row.

 

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I think you confuse an occupation force with a garrison. After the 1541 campaign 22.000 troops were left in Hungary, of which 2.126 were Jannisaries, but that is an occupation force, not a regular garrison, and they were retired a few years later.

Babinger and Imber both call them "garrisons." Imber points out that the Janissary totals were larger than what was in the regular army on account of the garrisons in all the provinces.

Anyway we are entering already second half of the XVI century, and I admit I was too rigid in my previous remark, the Janissary corps was enlarged quite considerably in the second half of the XVI century and regular garrisons could well have been established by then.So I will be back to my initial point, that no sizeable force of Jannisaries was ever hired in India in the first half of the XVI century, there are no mention of Jannisaires that I know in Indian sources, only Rumi, and the character of the Jannisary corps and their size at that period makes it highly improbable anyway.

Ya based on Portuguese sources I'm inclined to agree that Turks were not as common as mercenaries in the early 16th century.