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May 26, 2001
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Well, can't let Ayyuthaya have all the fun, now can we? Can't tip the balance of power too much in Ayyuthaya's favor :)


On the rather tricky matter of Dai Viet's name(s)...

http://www.viettouch.com/hist/vietnam_history.html

Viet Nam has been successively known as…
257 BC: Van Lang (Hung or Lac dynasty)
257-207: Au Lac (Thuc dynasty)
207-11: Nam Viet (Trieu dynasty)
3 BC-203 AD: Giao Chi (Han dynasty [first part])
203-544: Giao Chau (Han dynasty [second part])
544-603: Van Xuan (Ly dynasty)
603-939: An Nam (Duong dynasty)
968-1054: Dai Co Viet (Dinh dynasty)
1054-1400: Dai Viet (Ly and Tran dynasties)
1400-1407: Dai Ngu (Ho dynasty)
1427-1802: Dai Viet (Le and Nguyen dynasties)
1802: Viet Nam (Gia Long)
1832: Dai Viet (Minh Mang)
04/1945: Viet Nam (First national government)

Some background history leading up to 1419 (I have bolded interesting bits... its kinda long)...

An Outline of Vietnamese History
http://www.vietcatholic.net/culture/outline.htm

Having usurped the throne in 1400, Ly reverted to using his ancestral family name of Hoà, and established the Hoà dynasty. The name of the country was changed from An-Nam to Ñaïi-Ngu. After a reign of only one year, Ly followed the former practice of the Traàn and abdicated in favor of his son, although Ly continued to exercise power himself and energetically advanced his programs of reform. The army was reorganized and enlarged; and Lyù is creditted with the invention of a kind of galley for the use of his fleet. Taxes were revised, and the ports were opened to trading vessels, which were also subject to taxation. The examination system was again modified to require more practical knowledge of peasant life, mathematics and current events, in addition to the Confucian classics which had previously been required. Legal reforms were begun, and a medical service was established. Externally, however, the Hoà dynasty was encountering difficulties in its relations with the Champa and with Chinese Ming dynasty. Before Lyù’s far-sighted policy could take root, the Ming invaded. Lyù’ son had been granted recognition as King by the Chinese who were deceived by the lie that there were no more remaining descendants of the Traàn. The Chinese quickly discovered the trick, and immediately established liaison with those who were still loyal to the Traàn. The Chinese promised to restore the Traàn dynasty.

As the Chinese moved in, they sought to reestablish their former protectorate of Giao-Chæ. When they claimed their right to do so on the grounds that no descendant of the Traàn existed, they immediately found themselves confronted with a dangerous movement of popular dissidence. An attempt to wrest back power from the Chinese was made by a prince of the Traàn family, who raised an army and rallied the people for a time, proclaiming himself Emperor Giaûn-Ñònh in 1407. In 1408 Giaûn-Ñònh won a spectacular victory over a far superior force of Chinese. But his success was short-lived. Giaûn-Ñònh beheaded two generals who had object to his over-enthusiastic zeal in desiring to launch another attack without waiting reinforcements. This act resulted in a considerable loss of support for Giaûn-Ñònh. Although the resistance was kept up for several more years, it was eventually washed away in blood and the country was again placed under direct Chinese rule.

Under the Ming domination, the people were subjected to the worst exploitation and suffering in their entire history. The Chinese attempted, at the same time, to denationalize the local population. The great literary and historical works were removed to China, and Chinese classics were substituted for instruction in schools. Vietnamese women were to wear the Chinese fashioned vest and pats, and men had to let hair grow long in the Chinese style. In fact, all the old customs, even the betel chewing were forbidden, and local religious rites were replaced by the Chinese ones. Forces labor was used to extract all kinds of riches from the earth and sea for shipment to China. In addition, the Chinese, as well as those local officials who cooperated with them, profitted by exorbitant taxes to be levied on everything ranging from salt to silkworm cocoons. The oppressed people, determined to end the harsh Chinese rule, found a leader in a man name Leâ-Lôïi.

Leâ-Lôïi came from a famous and wealthy family of farmers, and was known for his courage, honesty and generosity. In 1418 he organized a resistant movement in his own village of Lam-Sôn, in Thanh-Hoùa province, proclaiming himself Bình-Ñònh-Vöông (King for National Pacification), he launched a guerilla war against the Chinese which was to last for ten years. Three times he was forced to withdraw to the mountains, which were his safe rear base. Once as he was hunted down by the Ming, he was saved only because one of his leutenants sacrificed his own life by making them believe he was Leâ-Lôïi. After killing the lieutenant, they withdrew, only to be attacked again by the true Leâ-Lôïi.

By following Traàn-Höng-Ñaïo’s guerilla tactics of attacking the weakest targets, and withdrawing before a stronger force, Leâ-Lôïi’s resistance forces gradually eroded the power of the Chinese invaders. Leâ-Lôïi pioneered another precept of guerilla warfare as well: his forces maintained the strictest discipline, even when they were starving, and were absolutely forbidden to plunder the villages they occupied. Thus he was able to win the support of the population, while the Chinese found themselves in a hostile territory. He was greatly helped towards this end by Nguyeãn-Traõi, a scholar and patriot, with his clever propaganda and stirring writings. The population was by this time in a state of general rebellion in support of his patriotic endeavors, thus Leâ-Lôïi had time to consolidate his forces, while the Chinese were busy with quelling these rebellions. As a result the subsequent campaigns against the Ming invaders were remarkably successful. Finally, lured into the trap, the Chinese general was embushed and beheaded, and the rest of his army was defeated in later battles of the same year 1427. According to the peace terms, the remaining Chinese troops were evacuated in 1428. But in order to save face, the Chinese exerted pressure to have some descedant of the Traàn dynasty put on the throne. During the negotiation with them, Leâ-Lôïi did deal in the re-establishment the Traàn dynasty by proposing the name of Traàn-Caûo. However, the latter was well aware that he would be a puppet not permitted to exercise the authority due to a king. Therefore he chose to flee away. Pursued, captured and brought back, he was poisoned to death.

Leâ-Lôïi then became the first king of the Leâ, whom posthumous till was Leâ-Thaùi-Toå. The Leâ dynasty thereby founded in 1428 and the name of the country was changed from An-Nam to Ñaïi-Vieät or the Great-Vieät. In the peace accord, it was agreed that the custom of playing a trienneal tribute to China would be retained, but in practice the Leâ ruled independently. Immediately Leâ-Thaùi-Toå devoted himself to the task of reconstructing the war devatated country. The army was cut from 250,000 to 100,000 men, and a rotational system was established to allow four-fifths of the men at a time to return to the fields thus alleviating the serious problem of food shortages. The judicial system and penal code were reorganized. To develop a body of able administrators, the College of National sons was founded, with admitted students on the basis of merit, thus permitting gifted children from poor families to receive advanced training. Leâ-Thaùi-Toå died in 1433 at the age of 49, and was succeeded by his eleven year old son, Leâ-Thaùi-Toân. Thanks to his intelligence, Leâ-Thaùi-Toân governed with all-round ability despite his young age and hardship of several natural disasters which led to poor harvests.

Some of that might be hard to script in... Start Dai Viet off as a vassal of China and then an event that breaks the vassalage? Minor events boosting army and stability?

P.S. In order to boost a certain amount "realism" as well as giving Asian nations a fighting chance, the more developed nations could automatically be given bailiffs, legal counsels, and governors in each province. Or the tech itself since the nations would pretty much be kept in that same tech level the majority of the game. I'll tinker with that in my own little "scenario."
 
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Good job Au Lac, always good to see new threads! I've linked this up to the Main Asia Thread.


Now, I have a question for people, as players of Dai Viet or as observers.

Is it too strong? The two times I have paid attention to it as an observer it had taken over most of S.E. Asia and spread out to annex the island states as well. Could have been an improbable occurance though.
 
Heh

Heh...

I haven't tried to do it in historical observer mode (don't know how).

I would say that the balance of power in SEA was kept by Ayu and Dai Viet. Those were the two predominant powers of SEA mainland, manipulating the other smaller SEA countries like Cambodia and Laos in proxy wars between the two.

And there was always China/Mongols/Ming to interfere/invade/make a general nuisance of themselves.

In game terms, I would say make Siam and Dai Viet equal in military/economic terms. The occasional temporary Casus Belli from China. Plenty of revolts too.

Any idea how to increase the tax rate/base of provinces? There's no way that the current EU2 scheme could have Dai Viet support a mere 100K worth of troops.

P.S. Hehehe, for a while, I was working on conquering a good portion of Asia. Had Champa & Malacca militarily annexed, Laos & Cambodia & Taungu diplo-annexed, Pegu & Ayu vassallized. Next stop... China! Until I realised, tech wise, Dai Viet was totally screwed... especially economically with China's inflation spiking into astronomical levels and affecting everyone else.

Maybe inflation should be linked with base population levels? Large rates of inflation could be depleted by having larger population bases as well as larger neighbors (and not just linked to production as it is now I think).
 
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Mmmm! At least Dai Viet has no elephants :eek: (or I mistake here?).

Rather than giving baillif and other tax collectors at start, we maybe should ask for a general increase of intrinsic income of Asian provinces. Some were definitively richer (like Ayutthaya:D ) than Europe best provinces at start game (and even later). This should also allow an highest manpower, for letting Dai Viet building incridble armies (what did they do with these hordes?!)
 
Originally posted by odega
Mmmm! At least Dai Viet has no elephants :eek: (or I mistake here?).

Actually, yes, Dai Viet did have elephants :) As well as your average horse cavalry. Though their war elephants probably weren't as well developed as their more Indianized counterparts.

P.S. Here's something I dug up... The Viet probably would have also used irregular tribals as well in the March to the South. And I think there are records of elephants being used against the Ming when we rose up against them. They were neutralized by booby trapped pits. Just FYI stuff...

In Beijing, the Emperors had a huge stable, comprising the space of several modern city blocks, located in the southwest district of the Inner City, expressly for the elephant living quarters and exercise grounds. By the time the Manchus consolidated their rule, the Burmese sent regular tribute gifts of pachyderms to the Chinese court. The elephant handlers were from Vietnam.

Rather than giving baillif and other tax collectors at start, we maybe should ask for a general increase of intrinsic income of Asian provinces. Some were definitively richer (like Ayutthaya:D ) than Europe best provinces at start game (and even later). This should also allow an highest manpower, for letting Dai Viet building incridble armies (what did they do with these hordes?!) [/B]

Beat themselves silly against hordes and hordes of Chinese, Mongols, and Mings? And in between those bouts, beat themselves silly amongst themselves.
 
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Originally posted by Au Lac



Beat themselves silly against hordes and hordes of Chinese, Mongols, and Mings? And in between those bouts, beat themselves silly amongst themselves.

Arrrr, so much for me. I never realize that Dai Viet save SEA from the evil Chinese!

Can you clarify something for me: when did the EU region Mekong delta become apart of a Vietnamese kingdom??? From what I know, this was supposed to be a Khmer province until the 18th century :confused:
 
I also invite everyone to peruse an article on pre-modern Vietnamese firearms. Unfortunately, historical records and interest in the actual martial paraphernilia and weapons isn't of great interest in Viet Nam (those that do exist would need to be translated), so this will have to do.

FIREARMS AND ARTILLERY IN PRE-COLONIAL VIETNAM: An Introduction
By Philip Tom

The adoption and use of gunpowder-actuated weapons by the Vietnamese reflect the patterns of cultural influences that have shaped their civilization as a whole. Study of this subject by modern scholars has been hampered by the relative inaccessibility of source materials, and the loss of many artifacts during the country's turbulent history. What little that remains suggests that the Dai Viet people, like the Japanese, showed considerable talent for adaptation, but little proclivity for innovation in this field.

...

Unlike China, where the military use of gunpowder precedes the 11th cent. AD and where the earliest metal-barreled guns are believed to have originated in the mid-13th, Vietnam appears not to have acquired such technologies until the early 15th. The Vietnamese are thought to have ~ their first cannons circa 1414 from Ming forces stationed in Annam (central Vietnam). The Chinese had defeated and deposed Vietnam's Ho Dynasty in 1407, and established a military occupation of the country which lasted until they were expelled by the hero Le Loi in 1427. ... While in the country, the Chinese followed the well-known policy of "divide and conquer", favoring collaborators while cruelly suppressing the opposition. The introduction of gunpowder and artillery occurred under this political climate.

The rest can be found at...
http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/viet_cannon.html
 
From your history it seems to me like Viets should start off as a vassal of China from the very beginning. This is not just an event. This is a starting scenario condition! You should bring up this "fact" to the paradox people, or at least the betazoids.
 
Originally posted by Blade!
Good job Au Lac, always good to see new threads! I've linked this up to the Main Asia Thread.


Now, I have a question for people, as players of Dai Viet or as observers.

Is it too strong? The two times I have paid attention to it as an observer it had taken over most of S.E. Asia and spread out to annex the island states as well. Could have been an improbable occurance though.

I am currently playing a game as Manchu right now so I can observe what goes on in SEA.

And I will confirm what Blade just said.... Dai Viet is freakin strong! It force vassalized one of its neighbors (I think champa or ayutthaya) and it took 3 provinces from other enemies.... and this is only by year 1570! In my observation it became the largest power in Indochina region.

Maybe it may be better to vassalize it from the start, so that DaiViet restrains itself a little bit... and instead focus on breaking vassalize from the "evil overlord" which is China.
 
Like who is a Betazoid? Who has god-like powers and pull with Paradox? I'd like to know who's scripting the events because one event, apparently, is the civil war that comes later. And what events are planned for that matter so I can put in my two cents worth.

Champa being annexed isn't really news. It does happen in real life. Called the March to the South. One of the defining themes of Vietnamese history, the colonisation of the South. Much like the push West is for the United States. I think the most southern tip of what is modern day Viet Nam (what was once Khmer controlled) was taken in 1715. But Champa was pretty much being conquered/annexed from 1471 and on.

Let's see...

http://vn.fujitsu.com/vietnam/about.html

The kingdom of Champa existed from the 1st century of Christian reckoning until 1720 and it was for the most part of its history an important merchant nation. In 1471, armies of the Vietnamese Le Dynasty conquered the kingdom. About 60,000 Cham soldiers were killed and another 60,000 were abducted into slavery by the Vietnamese. The kingdom of Champa was reduced to a small area around the present Vietnamese town of Nha Trang. Later the Chams migrated to an area which today belongs to Cambodia.
 
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Re: Re: Dai Viet Events, Leaders, Etc.

Originally posted by Suleyman
From your history it seems to me like Viets should start off as a vassal of China from the very beginning. This is not just an event. This is a starting scenario condition! You should bring up this "fact" to the paradox people, or at least the betazoids.


Yes, it would be good to set Dai Viet as a vassal, with very bad relations, and no RM. Then we can have an event in 1427, with a choice to break vassage and gain "Le Loi" as a strong leader, or stay as a vassal and not get the leader.
 
Well, what are the possibility/branches of a script? DV could be a vassal of China, but how do you script in rebellions against the vassal lord and not the country itself? You should have Le Loi start in the game (since he's around raising merry hell with the Chinese/Mings), but that situation (option to revolt) might work.

Yeah, maybe that could be workable. Is there a way to script in an automatic declaration of war between two countries? and a way to script in DV obtaining an helluva lot of men in response to war with China?

Other script ideas: any war with China automatically gives DV a few 10K of men (mercenaries option/event?), the absorption of Champa by a certain date...

P.S. A royal marriage shouuld probably still exist between the two as well as a CB against China.
 
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Originally posted by Au Lac

Yeah, maybe that could be workable. Is there a way to script in an automatic declaration of war between two countries? and a way to script in DV obtaining an helluva lot of men in response to war with China?

It's not possible yet... we're testing a war-command in beta now. :) With an event you can also gain troops.
 
Let me ask you this then, is it possible to script it so that ANY war between China/DV would automatically give DV troops? at any time and place, if there's war, DV gets an infusion of fresh troops? You know, nothing ever united Viet Nam more than a good drop down, drag out fight with China. Stability +3 too. :)
 
Another thing, the king values seem to be totally generic. The first two kings, at least, should be given higher values.

The first king you start off with is actually Le Loi (with his royal name). Starting with the Le Dynasty.

1. Le Thai To (Le Loi) (1428-1433)
Events: Strong military, reforms, etc. Freedom from China. Revisions to law. Increased tolerance/preference to Confucianism... waning Buddhist influence.
2. Le Thai Tong (1434-1435)
Power in Le Nhan Tong's Mother (1435-1453)
3. Le Nhan Tong (1453-1459)
4. Le Thanh Tong (1459/60-1497)
Events: Switch to Confucian option, increased stability, prospertiy, etc. Tax revision, improvements in agriculture. Increased education, belle letters, increased education & morality, Hong Duc Code, rule of law and legal code that also provided legal and property rights for women. Minus to religion due to emphasis on practical secular matters? First complete survey map of Dai Viet. Patron to poets.
5. Le Hien Tong (1498-1504)
6. Le Tuc Tong(1504_
7. Le Uy Muc (1505-1509)
8. Tuong Duc (Gian Tu Cong) (1509-1516)
9. Le Chieu Tong (1516-1522)
10. Le Cung Hoang (1522-1527)

Generals:
1. Le Loi (already in)
2. Nguyen Trai (1380 - 1442), the National Hero, ideologist, politician, military strategist, poet, scholar, the Famous Name of the World Culture, conferred by UNESCO in 1980, was the first ranking courtier who devoted to the resistance war against the Ming and the foundation of Tran Dynasty. He himself created the ideology of the Lam Son Movement in the book ' Binh Ngo Sach' (The way to defeat the Chinese) which emphasized in heart-winning (propaganda).

Some background info...
http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/LeLoiAndTheLeDynasty.html

...regarded as one of the major writers and poets in Vietnam's history. According to Michael R. Nichols, this emperor oversaw Vietnam's thirteen provinces and its literary and scientific golden age. Almost 200,000 men were in the standing army. The earliest and most complete map of Vietnam appeared during his reign, also. The crowning achievement of Le Thanh Tong was the Hong Duc Code, a legal code which provided legal and property rights for women.

http://www.vietcatholic.net/culture/outline.htm

Leâ-Thaùnh-Toân reigned for 38 years during which the country enjoyed an outstanding period of prosperity. While revising the tax system and promoting agriculture, Leâ-Thaùnh-Toân was primarily concerned with custom and morals. He orders the people to spend their money in more useful ways instead of wasting on building pagodas and carrying out the marriage and death rites. A great author and poet himself, Leâ-Thaùnh-Toân named a special committee for the compilation of national history, and was an enthusiastic promoter of belles letters. He, also considered it his responsibility to concern himself with the education and morality of the people. To this end, he ordered that 24 articles governing personal conduct be read before each public gathering. For the most part, these rules dealt with prohibitions against sexual promiscuity and social duties to be performed by everybody. The reorganized military forces were also place under strict discipline.
 
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Originally posted by Au Lac
Let me ask you this then, is it possible to script it so that ANY war between China/DV would automatically give DV troops? at any time and place, if there's war, DV gets an infusion of fresh troops? You know, nothing ever united Viet Nam more than a good drop down, drag out fight with China. Stability +3 too. :)

trigger = { war = {xxx yyy} } and dates for the entire period maybe?
 
Starting Domestic Policy

I would also contend that the Domestic Policy be changed somewhat. The slider for Quality/Quantity should slightly favor quality or somewhat more in the middle rather than the current 100-90% quantity.

http://www.nhandan.org.vn/english/history/20010811.html
The army

Militarily, the Le divided the country into five zones with approximately 80 thousand troops. Like the Ly and Tran, the peasant-soldier system was maintained under the Le.

The Le divided the army into five sections, which took turns in doing military service and agricultural work. When four other sections went home to do farming, the last one was on duty. In the event of war, there would be no division of sections and all soldiers remained on duty.

The army under the Le was a strong armed force with high fighting skill and spirit. The military training regime was strictly stipulated. High-ranking military officials learned martial arts and the art of warfare at martial art school in Thang Long.

Each spring, soldiers from all provinces gathered in the capital to perform martial art and manoeuvres. Soldiers from Thanh Hoa and other southern provinces were allowed to perform manoeuvres in their localities. In addition, once every three years, military exercises were organised by the court for each arm such as infantry, cavalry and elephantry.

All soldiers in active service were allocated land in communes and villages based on their rank. Military officials were given land based on their positions like other mandarins.

The DP slider for serfdom/free should be somewhat in the middle (or at least not to the extreme serfdom as it is now). It should also lean towards centralization.

The Hong Duc Code

The Le kings paid due attention to the building of law. As soon as he was enthroned, Le Loi promulgated a number of rules and regulations on the allocation of public land in communes and villages, and legal procedure. Addition and amendment were made by the next kings to regulations on judging crimes like bribery or the ban of free contacts with foreigners.

In Le Thanh Tong’s reign, the state promulgated a new code which was known as the Hong Duc Code. The Hong Duc Code was aimed at:

Safeguarding the interests of the king and the Le royal family; all opposition against the court would be heavily dealt with.

Safeguarding the interests of the mandarin bureaucracy and landlords;

Stipulating an equal inheritance of assets between the deceased’s children regardless of their sex. If a family had no son, the daughters were eligible to inherit all property left.

The Hong Duc Code safeguarded the interests of the ruling class, and to some extent, those of women.
 
Event!

Echo, echo, echo... Am I alone in here?

Here's a suggested event:

"By the will of Heaven!"

And so it is writ on the sword wielded by the warrior king Le Loi. Legend has it that it was gift sent from heaven by way of a divine golden tortoise at Ho Hoan Kiem, The Lake of the Returned Sword. Imbued with divine purpose, Le Loi and sword were to do battle with the Ming interlopers. In the final days, when the terrible Ming army had fled from the field of battle, the tortoise asked for the sword back, its work complete. With a heavy heart, Le Loi returned the sacred sword back into the watery depths from which it came. People say, when the land and people are in desperate need, the golden tortoise will reappear. And with it, the sword.

By the will of Heaven.

#Sugested time period for possible event occurance: 1419-1428 (During war with China)

# +3 Stability
# +1 Tax Values
# +1 Aristocracy
# +1 Quality
# +1 Offensive Doctrine
# +1 Free Subject
# Additional Manpower/Morale (gain additional troops)
# Production/Tax value of provinces increases
?


Another suggested, more minor, event...

Viet troops capture Ming cannons and weapons!

# Sugested time period for possible event occurance: 1419-1428 (During war with China)

# +10 cannons
# +1 Offensive Doctrine


And one more, unpleasant, minor event...

Disaster! Ming troops have laid booby trap pits for our war elephants!

# Sugested time period for possible event occurance: 1419-1428 (During war with China)

# -1 Aristocracy
# -50 gold
# Lose cavalry
?
 
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Divine Golden Tortise? Maybe you should start a fantasy-Dai Viet thread! :D


Heh heh, didn't anyhing bad ever happen in Vietnam? I mean except for Elephant loss! ;)