Can't vassalise due to insufficient base tax?

J

Jam94banjo

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Dec 25, 2011

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #1

Hello, I am currently trying to vassalise Northumberland as part of my conquest of the British Isles with Tyrone. However, I can't currently vassalise them despite having +200 relations. The positive for vassalisation is +34 but the negative is -47, which is simply described as 'Tyrone Base Tax compared to Northumbrian'. Can anybody throw some ideas out there which could help me vassalise them please?

 

S

Struensee

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #2

Fabricate a claim, invade them and force vassalization.

 

J

Jam94banjo

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #3

Struensee said:

Fabricate a claim, invade them and force vassalization.

Click to expand...

Had to do that with Wales which I forgot to mention but thanks, anybody know how to solve the problem without a DOW?

 

K

Kaoschan

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #4

Conquer more provinces and increase your overall Basetax?

 

G

Gyorn

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #5

I had the same problem with Tunis as Ottomans with a modifier of 30-ish, i think this needs some serious balancing: I had a basetax of around 280 and they had 12 (more than 20 fold of theirs!). How big do i have to be in order to avoid this? oO

 

InnocentIII

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #6

They've changed the logic to require you to be a good deal larger, or at least richer, to diplo-annex people. No more growing from a 2-3PM to a major power by peacefully eating OPMs. As Bavaria, for example, Ansbach would not agree to vassalization until I conquered Salzburg (my theory is that the sooner I do something bad the sooner people can start forgiving me). You could probably derive a formula or approximation from that, Bavaria's pretty small, four provinces, but also pretty rich. Here's the math (I'm hoping that nothing else of consequence changed, but I have no clear recollection, so caveat emptor).

Base taxes:

Ansbach = 5
Bavaria = 38 (12+6+14+6)
Salzburg = 10

So 5/38 = 13% is too big, but 5/48 = 10.4% is not too big. That's my quick take. I'd look around for someone with 10% or less of your base tax, or else force vassalize (is the AE for that now the same as outright conquest? I'd thought it was half before). And yeah, I wanted a longer border with Austria cause I'm a genius, and because border friction really isn't that bad anymore. Seriously it's not been a real issue.

 

J

Jam94banjo

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #7

I think I will just take out Cumbria and a few other English provinces in a few years when my truce expires and then if that still hasn't improved the situation I can just walk straight into Northumberland. The Tyrinian-Scandinavian-Franco-Spanish-Scottish alliance does wonders against the English though

 

Emre Yigit

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #8

InnocentIII said:

(my theory is that the sooner I do something bad the sooner people can start forgiving me).

Click to expand...

Ah, the rationalisations of an EU BB!

But seriously good points there, thanks.

 

smellymummy

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Aug 27, 2003

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #9

what about getting stab to 3 and hiring a +5 diplo rep advisor? could that get you the fourteen positive points you need?

 

D

drayath

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #10

Ways i am aware of, other that the obvious of taking some other provinces to increase your base tax.

+5 rep diplomatic advisor will help, idea wise +3 in Diplomatic and another +3 in Expansion
increasing legitamacy to 100 will also add another ~2.5 (-2.5 reputation at 0, +2.5 at 100)
Is it gets attacked and your honour the call to arms gives about +4 trust each time (up to around 20) , helping other allies may give a smaller boost too.

Finally and completly untested, building temples might count as increased base tax for this purpose, even though it is not a real base tax change (seems to apply to some things but not others)

 

J

Jam94banjo

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Dec 25, 2011

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #11

smellymummy said:

what about getting stab to 3 and hiring a +5 diplo rep advisor? could that get you the fourteen positive points you need?

Click to expand...

I have the +5 diplo rep currently and to get the extra 2 stability would cost me far more in admin points then it would to core the province so I would prefer not to attempt that. Also, I don't think it would work anyway but nice thinking.

 

Kakafika

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #12

I had the same problem in my 1.2 Mamluk game. Hedjaz has 3 provinces of relatively high base tax (something like 3, 5, and 8) while I have all starting Mamluk provinces + a few in ethiopia, yet I get an (approximately) -67 modifier to my attempts to diplo vassalize due to this base tax comparison.

I already have a RM and alliance with them and would hate to take some more stab hits... then again, I may just restart...

I didn't realize how much I relied on savescumming when I: forget to move an army on the correct day, causing me to lose a decisive battle and the war; alt-tab to quickly look up historical event on wikipedia, dive into a wiki-hole, come back to CHAOS; etc. o

 

Last edited: Sep 25, 2013

U

unmerged(34615)

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #13

I love that the OP played as Ulster, hats off to you! I'm having a similar issue as England trying to vasselize the other three provinces in ireland besides Ulster. I own England, one scottish province and 6 french provinces, and yet my base tax is insufficient even with a +5 diplo. Kinda ridic, if you ask me.

 

J

Jam94banjo

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• Sep 25, 2013

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• #14

Great news everybody! Managed to vassalise Northumberland in about 1525. I managed to take Cumbria, Yorkshire, Derby and Marches which then took the 'Tyrone Base Tax compared to Northumbrian' down to 30. In terms of my conquest of the British Isles, England just have the 4 most south-westernly provinces remaining and I have Scotland vassalised and I have just annexed Cornwall so everything is looking good

 

rebelde

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• Sep 26, 2013

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• #15

Personal Unions aren't an option anymore. Diplo-annexing vassals is so hard that is basically a non-option unless you already blobbed enough. So unless you're a colonial power your only option to expand is war but with the recent changes to AE you can only take so many provinces before you end up with half of europe in a coalition against you. What are you supposed to do between wars while waiting for AE to decay, stare at the screen while the clock ticks?

 

brifbates

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• Sep 26, 2013

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• #16

A note from my experience with the same issue as Muscovy trying to vassalize Ryazan...

Existing vassals are included in your "military power" and "base tax" for those calculations in some fashion. My chance actually decreased at first when I annexed Perm. In the end I couldn't peacefully vassalize them until I owned all but Novgorod (the province) and Pskov (two province vassal) of the Russian principalities plus had colonized Tura and Pylum and had +10 Trust due to long term access plus some rebel squashing for them. Granted most of the gains were low tax and absorbing vassals but 10-1 with the +5 advisor to help may be a little bit much to ask for.

 

Camped Crusader

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• Sep 26, 2013

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• #17

Maybe someone with better math skills than myself can derive something from this:

All Countriey are OPMs

Gelre (me) Base Tax 6 trying to annex:

Base tax 2 -60 modifier
Base tax 3 -70
Base tax 5 -79
Base tax 6 -82

Edit: strangely another base 6 gave -84 modifier and the modifier seems to cap at -90

 

bleakie

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• Sep 26, 2013

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• #18

I have compiled some data.
Burgundy at game start, with 140 base tax.
Opinion of OPMs on vassalization due to base tax:
Albania 1 base tax +30
Connacht 2 base tax +30
Naxos 3 base tax +30
Munster 4 base tax +30
Urbino 5 base tax +30
Liege 6 base tax +12
Aachen 7 base tax -7
Frankfurt 8 base tax -21
Magdeburg 9 base tax -21
Salzburg 10 base tax -32

For two-province states, this discrepancy makes me stop and think:
Baden 7 base tax (4+3) +12
Pskov 7 base tax (5+2) -7

 

brifbates

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• Sep 26, 2013

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• #19

bleakie said:

I have compiled some data.
Burgundy at game start, with 140 base tax.
Opinion of OPMs on vassalization due to base tax:
Albania 1 base tax +30
Connacht 2 base tax +30
Naxos 3 base tax +30
Munster 4 base tax +30
Urbino 5 base tax +30
Liege 6 base tax +12
Aachen 7 base tax -7
Frankfurt 8 base tax -21
Magdeburg 9 base tax -21
Salzburg 10 base tax -32

For two-province states, this discrepancy makes me stop and think:
Baden 7 base tax (4+3) +12
Pskov 7 base tax (5+2) -7

Click to expand...

Are you looking for buildings that affect tax? I know there are some scattered around the world at start.

 

bleakie

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• Sep 26, 2013

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• #20

My bad. It seems that the tax base shown in the economy tab is actually the sum of tax income from the provinces, rather than the sum of base taxes. At least this matches my observations in Bohemia and Scotland.
I tried to reproduce what I have obtained for Burgundy, but I can't. The numbers that I have got seems to be wrong after 2 of my subsequent checks. I don't understand why, but I will restart the whole process.