Well, I think you should put up a counter-proposal and then let it go to voting in the Congress. Your idea does hold merit, but it needs development.
- Sérgio Gogołów
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Well, I think you should put up a counter-proposal and then let it go to voting in the Congress. Your idea does hold merit, but it needs development.
- Sérgio Gogołów
I am in agreeance with the above quote. So I do not support the Separation of State and Military Act
~ Juan Alvarez
((I've edited the post for your benefit. Though I can just state right here that it was in response to Andonie.))
How about this for a system?
The Military becomes completely under the control of the Minister of War and the Minister of the Navy.
The Minister of War is suggested by the president and voted on by congress
The Minister of War appoints all generalships
A generalship can only be removed by death of character, by anti-patriotism (participation of failed coups, or otherwise), or...
A general can be removed from office by a Senate Majority vote of no confidence
This proposal should be an equal balance of power, removing the Military from under the control of any one individual
What say'st you people on this as a potential bill?
The Military becomes completely under the control of the Minister of War and the Minister of the Navy.
The Minister of War is suggested by the president and voted on by congress
The Minister of War appoints all generalships
A generalship can only be removed by death of character, by anti-patriotism (participation of failed coups, or otherwise), or...
A general can be removed from office by a Senate Majority vote of no confidence
This proposal should be an equal balance of power, removing the Military from under the control of any one individual
What say'st you people on this as a potential bill?
This is a proposal which I could back. However, in my opinion, the Minister of War should be suggested and appointed by the Congress. There are some other changes which should be made, but overall, it is a sound idea.
- Sérgio Gogołów
((I would say that you should remove the Minister of Navy bit and replace it with the Chief of Staff. The CoS is appointed by the Congress. Something like that))
- Sérgio Gogołów
((I would say that you should remove the Minister of Navy bit and replace it with the Chief of Staff. The CoS is appointed by the Congress. Something like that))
((I've been convinced of the necessity to contain the President's power to appoint generals by Senor Gogołów's arguements, so I will submit my own bill for consideration with the necessary alterations.))
Military Command Reform Act
Article 1. Appointment of the Chief of Staff of the Chilean armed forces. Hereafter referred to as CoS.
i) The CoS will be appointed by a plurality of votes in the Congreso (One round of voting, largest share of votes wins).
ii) The CoS will be chosen during the Presidential Election.
iii) For the duration of their term the CoS will hold the equivalent rank of Field Marshal or Fleet Admiral
iv) During the interval between the election and the new administration, the CoS will select a second from amongst the general officers he appoints who will hold the rank of Lieutenant-General or Vice-Admiral.
v) In the event that a CoS should perish, be captured, be declared no longer competent (See Article 3.i) or resign during the term of President, the Lieutenant-General/Vice-Admiral will assume the role of the Acting Chief of Staff until the next election.
Article 2. Delegation of powers to the Chief of Staff.
i) The CoS will have the sole power of appointment to general officer for command in the Chilean armed forces.
ii) The CoS will have the sole power to remove from the position of general officer any person not found fit for command, with the dismissed officer having no right of appeal to the President.
Article 3. Delegation of powers to the President.
i) The President will have the power to dismiss the CoS in the case of incapacitation, capture or on charges of incompetence.
ii) The act of dismissal and the justification must be made clearly before the Congreso.
iii) The President shall have the ultimate jurisdiction over the assigning of the armed forces to their consitutuent divisions.
iv) The President shall not be able to deprive a general officer of their command by means of reallocating all resources from the commander in question.
Article 4. Miscellany
i) Following the assigning of resources to the divisions of the Chilean armed forces by the President, the CoS will appoint the appropriate number of commanders and nominate their Second.
ii) The Minister of War (and any potential Minister of the Navy) shall be solely civilian offices and have no involvement with the chain of command.
iii) While a Presidential candidate can make recommendations for command positions, they cannot endorse a Chief of Staff candidate during the Presidential elections.
- Óscar de Vallenare
Military Command Reform Act
Article 1. Appointment of the Chief of Staff of the Chilean armed forces. Hereafter referred to as CoS.
i) The CoS will be appointed by a plurality of votes in the Congreso (One round of voting, largest share of votes wins).
ii) The CoS will be chosen during the Presidential Election.
iii) For the duration of their term the CoS will hold the equivalent rank of Field Marshal or Fleet Admiral
iv) During the interval between the election and the new administration, the CoS will select a second from amongst the general officers he appoints who will hold the rank of Lieutenant-General or Vice-Admiral.
v) In the event that a CoS should perish, be captured, be declared no longer competent (See Article 3.i) or resign during the term of President, the Lieutenant-General/Vice-Admiral will assume the role of the Acting Chief of Staff until the next election.
Article 2. Delegation of powers to the Chief of Staff.
i) The CoS will have the sole power of appointment to general officer for command in the Chilean armed forces.
ii) The CoS will have the sole power to remove from the position of general officer any person not found fit for command, with the dismissed officer having no right of appeal to the President.
Article 3. Delegation of powers to the President.
i) The President will have the power to dismiss the CoS in the case of incapacitation, capture or on charges of incompetence.
ii) The act of dismissal and the justification must be made clearly before the Congreso.
iii) The President shall have the ultimate jurisdiction over the assigning of the armed forces to their consitutuent divisions.
iv) The President shall not be able to deprive a general officer of their command by means of reallocating all resources from the commander in question.
Article 4. Miscellany
i) Following the assigning of resources to the divisions of the Chilean armed forces by the President, the CoS will appoint the appropriate number of commanders and nominate their Second.
ii) The Minister of War (and any potential Minister of the Navy) shall be solely civilian offices and have no involvement with the chain of command.
iii) While a Presidential candidate can make recommendations for command positions, they cannot endorse a Chief of Staff candidate during the Presidential elections.
- Óscar de Vallenare
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I might be biased, but I believe my bill is nice and concise, both easy to understand and powerful in its application.
In terms of Chief of Staff? He would either be replaced with the positions Minister of War and Minister of Navy (since that is the position right now anyways), or I could be persuaded to unify War and navy under the Chief of Staff.
In terms of him/her being proposed by the president? To add increased checks and balances to the military (i.e., not too much congressional power). This could be replaced with the ability for the president to veto suggestions of Chiefs of Staff (with the fear of looking to partisan if this power was used arbitrarily).
Again, if this is something that is actually going to be considered (TH will decide on that when he gets back I suppose), it should be nice and simple.
In terms of Chief of Staff? He would either be replaced with the positions Minister of War and Minister of Navy (since that is the position right now anyways), or I could be persuaded to unify War and navy under the Chief of Staff.
In terms of him/her being proposed by the president? To add increased checks and balances to the military (i.e., not too much congressional power). This could be replaced with the ability for the president to veto suggestions of Chiefs of Staff (with the fear of looking to partisan if this power was used arbitrarily).
Again, if this is something that is actually going to be considered (TH will decide on that when he gets back I suppose), it should be nice and simple.
Separation of State and Military Act
This revised version will create a duumvirate of the Minister of War (MoW) and the Chief of Staff (CoS). They are both responsible for the appointment of Generals and Admirals to lead the Armies and Navies of Chile.
Appointment of the MoW and the CoS.
Powers of The MoW, the CoS and the President
Individuals qualified for being MoW and CoS and miscellaneous effects.
- Sérgio Gogołów
((What do y'all think of this? I've made some revisions, but the base of it is still there.))
This revised version will create a duumvirate of the Minister of War (MoW) and the Chief of Staff (CoS). They are both responsible for the appointment of Generals and Admirals to lead the Armies and Navies of Chile.
Appointment of the MoW and the CoS.
- The MoW will be appointed by the Congress by majority vote during the normal election cycle.
- The CoS will be appointed by the Congress by majority vote during the normal election cycle.
Powers of The MoW, the CoS and the President
- The MoW will assume the President's capacity to appoint Generals and Admirals in addition to its current responsibilities.
- The CoS will keep its capacity to appoint Generals and Admirals.
- The MoW and the CoS will work together in a duumvirate to appoint Generals and Admirals. This will work similarly to the current process between the President and the CoS.
- The President has no jurisdiction over the appointment of Generals or Admirals.
- The President will be unable to intervene in the affairs of this duumvirate except in the case of an absolute stalemate.
Individuals qualified for being MoW and CoS and miscellaneous effects.
- Only Generals and Admirals are qualified for being appointed as CoS and MoW
- Generals and Admirals who are a part of the duumvirate will not be barred from military service.
- Sérgio Gogołów
((What do y'all think of this? I've made some revisions, but the base of it is still there.))
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My main issue with your proposal is the lack of Presidential say, I believe there should be some checks and balances. This duumvirate holds too much power without check from government.
However, it is appointed by the Congress, is it not?
- Sérgio Gogołów
((Also, edited it a bit for clarification: they are not permanent positions))
- Sérgio Gogołów
((Also, edited it a bit for clarification: they are not permanent positions))
The 1876 Primaries: Let's Get This Party Started
A wise man once said that nothing destroys a party so effectively as a term in power; never was this so true as in Chile just before the election of 1876. The 1876 Primaries saw no sign of the Radicales, who had held La Moneda just five years prior. In their place was the newly formed Partido Liberal Nuevo (often abbreviated to just the Liberales), a new tent party devised to accommodate the former radicales and the most liberal defectors from the Republicanos. The more conservative Republicanos were unfazed, though their ranks now held some unfamiliar members following the disbanding of and amnesty for the Accion Patriotica, a right-wing rebel movement that had existed in one form or the other since the fall of the Empire. The Republicanos would enjoy no such boost, Cortez knew, as German and his Citizen Guard still eluded capture and continued to lurk outside the electorate. The FNT, for their part, faced the earliest victory of any party as they managed to hold their own party together. Faced with Communist separatism and the new idea of a Partido Comunista, the FNT was only barely able to placate its most radical members and hold the growing party together.
The field of candidates had, if anything, shrunk since the last election, howevermuch the electorate might have grown. Cortez himself, the incumbent President, was late to announce his candidacy (busy as he was in matters of government) but was hardly taxed for it, facing political newcomer Valentin Severino in the Republicano primary. Left-wing rivals and familiar names Carlos Andonie and Lorenzo Subercaseaux competed for the Liberal Nuevo nomination, while FNT old-hats Carlos Juan Carnal and Sérgio Gogołów battled both each other and radical Communist Osvaldo Tamiuszski in their own primary.
The Chief of Staff nomination seemed sure for most of the primary season, as Severiano Miramontes, a respected military officer, began as the only viable candidate for the post. However, after considerable talk of altering the duties of the Chief of Staff and a few other developments, Martin Schmidt - a little known army quartermaster who first came into the public light with his work implementing the Military Supply Bill - emerged to compete with Miramontes for the position.
Primary Candidates
Liberales Nuevos Candidates: ((Radical-Liberal))
Carlos Andonie, ((rudders10)) - Pro Military/Pluralism/Laissez-Faire/Free Trade/Full Citizenship [1+2+2+1+2=8]
Lorenzo Subercaseaux, ((Lyonessian)) - ((Waiting))
Republicanos Candidates: ((Liberal-Conservative, Party of Power))
Alejandro Cortez ((Zzzzz...)) - Jingoism/Moralism/State Capitalism/Protectionism/Limited Citizenship [0+0+0+0+1=1]
Valentin Severino ((Syriana)) - Pro Military/Pluralism/Laissez-Faire/Free Trade/Full Citizenship [1+2+2+1+2=8]
FNT Candidates: ((Socialist, In Opposition))
Sérgio Gogołów, ((Dyranum)) - Anti-Military/Pluralism/Interventionism/Protectionism/Full Citizenship [2+1+1+0+2=6]
Carlos Carnal, ((Red Cesar)) - Anti Military/Secularism/State Capitalism/Protectionism/Full Citizenship [2+2+0+0+2=6]
Osvaldo Tamiuszski, ((tamius23)) - Pacifism/Atheism/Planned Economy/Protectionism/Full Citizenship [3+3+3+0+2=11]
-------------------------
Player Actions Needed:
It's time vote in the primaries again, and coalition voting is back. As before, you vote on your favorite candidate if there is no coalition, your preferred coalition, and your preferred candidate if there is a coalition.
You also have to vote on your favorite reform out of Proportional Representation, All Unions Allowed, and Secret Ballots. You can vote for more than one if you like. The one with the most votes gets implemented provided it has enough support (which has to be more than majority.)
I also need a yes/no vote on the Military Command Reform Act and the Separation of State and Military Act, the texts of both of which can be found immediately preceding this update.
As a reminder, AGITATORS ARE DISENFRANCHISED AND CANNOT RUN FOR OFFICE OR VOTE! Looking at you, Seek.
Here's a sample ballot below.
Party: Republicanos
Candidate: Abstain
Coalition: With FNT/With Liberales/No Coalition/Abstain
Coalition Candidate: Abstain
Reform: Proportional Representation/All Unions Allowed/Non-Secret Ballots/Any Combination Thereof/None/Abstain
Separation of State and Military Act: Yes/No/Abstain
Military Command Reform Act: Yes/No/Abstain
Since we're back to coalition voting, candidates can vote. We're voting on Chief of Staff later.
I'll give this two days to vote, ending 10 AM PST (6 PM GMT, I believe) on the 4th. I may cut it short if we get enough votes in quickly (25 or more by two days from now), as unlikely as that now seems.
Sorry for the early update this morning. If I cut off anyone who wanted to run, let me know in the next hour and a ha
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The 5 ministries should be appointed by the president, and the 5 general/admiral positions should be appointed by the CoS. Should the CoS perish or resign, the presidential appointed Minister of War/Defense/Navy will take his position. It's very simple. We shouldn't complicate matters anymore.
President is appointed by the people in the elections, and the president chooses the ministers.
CoS is appointed by vote in the congress and he appoints the generals.
The Minister of War shouldn't be appointed by the congress, because why complicate matters? Already having a congress appointed CoS is ready enough. The thing that everyone is not seeing is that by having the MoS appointed by congress/CoS, we are powering the CoS more than the president. Why? Because there is a delicate balance of the President having exactly 5 ministers to back him, and the CoS having exactly 5 generals to back himself. So if there's a coup, it's all going to be based on the votes of both ministers and generals, so if let's say a communist president gets elected and the nationalists get the CoS position, then the CoS can coup and the communist cabinet will be outnumbered in vote and will have no actual power. And viceversa, a liberal government can be offed by a socialist CoS, just by one vote, because the President would have only 4 ministers without the ministry of war, and the CoS would have 5 generals AND the Minister of War. It's really difficult to balance, that's why we should keep with our system that is working PERFECTLY. The socialists are just pissed that they had their Chief of Staff ill and couldn't really appoint socialist ministers, let's not let that anger destroy our system!
-Tarquino Zepeda
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((I take it that we're still voting for ourselves. Also, isn't it kind-of impossible to vote on both Military Reforms? They don't take each other into account. Though I guess it's to be able to push through at least one, if the other gets voted down.))
Party: FNT
Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów
Coalition: Abstain
Coalition Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów
Reform: All Unions Allowed
Separation of State and Military Act: Yes
Zepeda, I think you forget a thing: the ministers command forces far smaller than the generals in the event of a coup attempt. The 5 ministers opposing a coup of 5 Generals will fail. Completely. Also, this proposal is not made by me due to the failure of an FNT victory. On the contrary, it's due to the realisation that the current system is not feasible in the long run, even despite the creation of the position of CoS.
- Sérgio Gogołów
((Also, why not complicate things? It's fun.
))
Party: FNT
Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów
Coalition: Abstain
Coalition Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów
Reform: All Unions Allowed
Separation of State and Military Act: Yes
Zepeda, I think you forget a thing: the ministers command forces far smaller than the generals in the event of a coup attempt. The 5 ministers opposing a coup of 5 Generals will fail. Completely. Also, this proposal is not made by me due to the failure of an FNT victory. On the contrary, it's due to the realisation that the current system is not feasible in the long run, even despite the creation of the position of CoS.
- Sérgio Gogołów
((Also, why not complicate things? It's fun.
))
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((I agree. It should be one or the other, not both.))
((Also, if I become Chief of Staff, will I have an army to command?))
((Also, if I become Chief of Staff, will I have an army to command?))
((EDIT: I thought we already had non-secret ballots?))
((Depends on which Act you support.))
((Depends on which Act you support.))
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(( I hadn't seen the update. I will vote now. ))
Party: Liberales
Candidate: Carlos Andonie
Coalition: Republicanos
Coalition Candidate: Carlos Andonie
Reform: Proportional Representation/Non-Secret Ballots
Separation of State and Military Act: No
Military Command Reform Act: No
Party: Liberales
Candidate: Carlos Andonie
Coalition: Republicanos
Coalition Candidate: Carlos Andonie
Reform: Proportional Representation/Non-Secret Ballots
Separation of State and Military Act: No
Military Command Reform Act: No
Senor de Vallenare, I will support your bill if the second Act is revised; as previously stated by Senor Andonie, I believe the president needs a say in the appointment if generals, lest we grant too much power to the CoS.
As for my vote, I will choose the following:
Party: Partido Republicano
Candidate: Valentine Severino
Coalition: Partido Liberale Nuevo
Coalition Candidate: Severino, Andonie (no preference between the two)
Reform: Proportional Representation, Non-Secret Ballots
As for my vote, I will choose the following:
Party: Partido Republicano
Candidate: Valentine Severino
Coalition: Partido Liberale Nuevo
Coalition Candidate: Severino, Andonie (no preference between the two)
Reform: Proportional Representation, Non-Secret Ballots