Thinking this way, today every country could hire foreign spaceship builders and fly to the mooncoefficient said:
They even don't know their own's continent ...
How does Shawnee tribe ever get boats?
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They even don't know their own's continent ...
In theory they could have thatched the boats together, but I don't see them having any use for ocean travel. Polynesians did that though I think.
I think we overestimate how high these societies were. The fact is these societies were stone age, and never got to anything past that that. Its wonderful that the mastered carving blocks and building large temples, but they never managed to discover the potential of metals beyond decorative objects.
Then again its not really their fault, the develop of a civilization is based on needs and some luck. What need do the Aztec have for exploring that seemingly endless seas? None. There's plenty good land with resources right over there. Europe not the largest place if you've checked. Apparently they were content with obsidian blades, or just some sticks and stones because they weren't competing with someone wearing steel amour. And if they were I'm sure they would have eventually stumbled upon firearms, or at least metal arrowheads, in a few centuries if they somehow weren't wiped out. But they were so that is that.
This thread is a bit off topic though. Giving the natives some cogs for kicks is no problem with me.
Dinsdale said:Most of the western and eastern world new the earth was a sphere from the third century BC, right after Eratosthenes published his calculations.
The myth of humanity believing in a flat earth until the late 15th century is right up there with sea faring indigenous American tribes in terms of realism.
Sad.
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Colombus's discovery was the only one which led to a constant and repeatable set of voyages. You can claim the Vikings, Chinese or Martians got there first if you like, in fact about 50 countries claim to have trans-Atlantic myths, but the world impact of those "discoveries" was nil. The Carribean is generally an accepted piece of the Americas, even if CC thought he was a tad further West
The fact that it was sponsored by one of the great powers of the time and was greatly popularized doesn't change the fact that he wasn't the first one to do so. Perhaps he was the most influential of the time, but that doesn't change my point.
Dinsdale said:
You mean our hideously eccentric, non-standardized modern calendar that can't even remain consistent with how many days there are in a month and has to add an extra day in there every four years just to keep accurate - and even then loses a minute once in a while?
The calendars before this (in Europe, at least) were generally even more eccentric and less codified - whereas the Mayan calendar was lunar, and so had a little over 28 days in each month consistently and 13 months (though they were actually organized in many smaller "months" within the calendar). In fact, to this day, the inaccuracy of the Mayan calendar can be measured in a matter of minutes because they didn't take into account the slowing of the earth's rotation, mainly because they couldn't fathom such a thing. All things considered, a few minutes isn't bad. So, no, it doesn't translate to sea-faring directly, but it could easily be applied to astral navigation. They obviously knew where all the stars were, after all.Dinsdale said:
*shrugs* Because they didn't see a need to develop sea-faring vessels beyond coastal fishing ships. Why should they? They didn't live on an island, and it was safer to go by land anyway. Doesn't mean that they couldn't have developed such methods had they been given a reason to, and in a game where you can transform Albania into a major colonial power (despite them not really having that strong of a naval tradition or need for sea-faring), I don't think that this should be a limitation.
Dinsdale said:
Nope, but if you and a hundred others of your same decent education got together and started experimenting with the idea for a good portion of your life, then passed on your notes and ideas to another generation of researchers, who made gains where you left off, and then they handed their findings to the next generation of researchers... well, after a while, you certainly would be able to build one to cross the Atlantic (or at the very least one capable of island hopping across the Pacific). No great feat of technical genius like a non-coastal sea-faring vessel has ever been accomplished by one person alone, and you using yourself as an example is not particularly fitting of the situation. Also, these things take time, lots of it - and I advocate building that into a system like this. In fact, it already has been - that tech penalty is pretty robust. I don't think the possibility should be ruled out, however.
Dinsdale said:
The unlikely scenario of the Native Americans resisting colonialism? Certainly unlikely, but then, if you're the one playing them, anything is possible. You ARE changing history in this game, after all, and some people have already accepted the challenge of trying to keep the Americas free of Europeans... and have succeeded. It's exceedingly difficult, but not impossible. I believe there's even a few AARs out there about just such a thing. Then, as those Native Americans are suddenly presented with the need for sea-faring capabilities, then they'll certainly try their best to figure it out - and if they manage to find themselves a working or semi-working model of a European ship, then all the better for them. We humans are amazingly adaptive critters - we figure out some truly stunning things, and when we need to, we have a knack for figuring it out quickly, or at least pulling off some quality mimicry (maybe it's not quite as good, but still better than nothing). As someone else pointed out earlier, Japan did some impressive things fitting the above description perfectly - going from feudal-era technology to being completely modernized in 150 years? And you don't think some Aztecs figuring out how to built a rudimentary sea-faring vessel is possible...
Dinsdale said:
Well, the Polynesians certainly didn't have iron, and they managed to cross thousands of miles of ocean. As I already mentioned in my argument, perhaps the Incans or whoever develop an alternative, inferior form of construction that only really allows for very short trips on the unprotected sea - that's what the Polynesians did, and via that method managed to island hop a very, very long way. Why shouldn't the people who built temples that defy modern science not be able to figure something out that tribal primitives discovered thousands of years before?
Edit: Something of note - the Aztecs in particular were accomplished gold smiths. Metal-working was hardly beyond them, though lack of materials made things difficult.
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MagisterMundi said:...I notice you didn't try and refute my own explanation that came before this one.
Not that I'm implying you can't. No, not at all...
...
No, seriously, I'm curious as to how my own logic fairs. I obviously think it's pretty good (being self-biased and all), but 'twould be great if someone could point something out that's lacking. Because honestly, I'm contemplating modding this if necessary, but I don't really want to, and won't if someone convinces me that it's not even remotely "historically plausible"...
Well, I only argue if my own thoughts and concepts are challenged in a hostile way as if I don't know what I'm talking about, such as Mr. Magnum did. I don't care for debating for debate's sake, but since you asked...
I don't disagree with your assertions as far as capabilities go. I am by no means arguing that the Central American or the North American Amerindians were mentally incapable of understanding or comprehending advanced concepts such as metallurgy or shipbuilding. Their shortcomings, if you can call them that, were organizational, sociological and economical.
Could the Aztecs eventually have built seafaring ships, navigated the sea, and colonized overseas? In the knowledge sense of the question, yes. They were quite capable of building a ship, learning to navigate it, and explore. If the Aztecs had decided Quetzcoatl had ordered them to build ships and explore I'm sure they could have found a way. The Aztecs would have vassalized (or tried to vassalize) any indigenous people they encountered, as per their normal routine, but would not have established colonies as we knew them to be.
You compared the Aztecs to the ancient Egyptians and I think that's a very apt analogy. Could the Egyptians, with their vast powers of organization and manpower and knowhow found a way to sail through the Mediterranean and discover South America? I believe so, eventually. The simple fact is that Egyptian society was not geared that way, and they simply did not feel the need to explore past Gibraltar, so instead they directed their energies elsewhere. Would a hypothetical ancient strategy game that hardcodes the Egyptians into not getting past Gibraltar bother me? Not in the slightest. But in a game where Mecklenburg can colonize Africa should the Aztecs be allowed to build ships? Perhaps. Like I said, if Paradox decided to un-hardcode it no sweat off my back. The North American Indians? Definitely not - they had none of the advantages of the Aztecs insofar as knowledge and economic ability to do so and all of the disadvantges.
The central and south Americans worked copper for tools like axes, the Incas and Tarascans worked Bronze for weapons (mace heads, halberd) and tools (like axes, knives, chisels, fishing spear tips, and crow-bars). Given time iron may have followed.offgreen said:
i could not resist joining
Have you seen Apocalypto? Do you acctually think these guys can go through Atlantic's and conquer Europe? I don't think so.
Now I'll be serious. Natives of America, Chinese, AFricans etc are missing the most important thing which is essense of european thinking - critical and innovative thinking - or simply put - philosophy or to be more precise christian philosophy.
Without real philosophy you can do nothing - all you can do is to repeat various stories and myths also discover or invent something by accident. Just like egyptians - static civilization for three thousand years.
People like to say that arabics were more developed than europeans in middle ages.
That's true until 13 century. Arabs conquer most of Byzantines and found texts of greek philosophers. That allowed them to be as developed as byzantines. That happened later? Nothing, they learned to repeat those texts.)
Why nothing more? Why not the burst of innovations which happened than europeans rediscovered these texts? Answer - islam is not good religion for innovations, but christianity is. Confucianism is also definitely not good for innovations, nor pagan religions of maya or aztecs.
And christianity mixed with greek philosophy is like dynamite. So if you want be like european nation all you have to do is - change religion (christianize) and take greek philosophy (latinize).
Of course there is something better than greek philosophy + christianity. It's scientifical thinking, which is by the way strictly european product and is historical consequence of greek philosophy + christianity.
Japanese in the end of 19 century were able to westernize by copying scientifical thinking. Such feat is impossible in EU 3 as european nations themselfes do not have scientifical thinking in that time frame or at least until 17 century.
To sum - it is absolutely reasonable that natives if they want to be as cool as europeans must become christians and latins. Some nations as China because of confucianism simply cannot be competitative with europeans in EU3 time frame nor they can become christians because of obvious reasons (we chinese are the best in the world, our emperor is god, bla bla bla...)
Personaly, i think that if EU must be made historicaly correct it shoudn't be possible for mayas, aztecs, africans etc to research things at all, because they don't know the very idea of research.
Have you seen Apocalypto? Do you acctually think these guys can go through Atlantic's and conquer Europe? I don't think so.
Now I'll be serious. Natives of America, Chinese, AFricans etc are missing the most important thing which is essense of european thinking - critical and innovative thinking - or simply put - philosophy or to be more precise christian philosophy.
Without real philosophy you can do nothing - all you can do is to repeat various stories and myths also discover or invent something by accident. Just like egyptians - static civilization for three thousand years.
People like to say that arabics were more developed than europeans in middle ages.
That's true until 13 century. Arabs conquer most of Byzantines and found texts of greek philosophers. That allowed them to be as developed as byzantines. That happened later? Nothing, they learned to repeat those texts.
) Why nothing more? Why not the burst of innovations which happened than europeans rediscovered these texts? Answer - islam is not good religion for innovations, but christianity is. Confucianism is also definitely not good for innovations, nor pagan religions of maya or aztecs.
And christianity mixed with greek philosophy is like dynamite. So if you want be like european nation all you have to do is - change religion (christianize) and take greek philosophy (latinize).
Of course there is something better than greek philosophy + christianity. It's scientifical thinking, which is by the way strictly european product and is historical consequence of greek philosophy + christianity.
Japanese in the end of 19 century were able to westernize by copying scientifical thinking. Such feat is impossible in EU 3 as european nations themselfes do not have scientifical thinking in that time frame or at least until 17 century.
To sum - it is absolutely reasonable that natives if they want to be as cool as europeans must become christians and latins. Some nations as China because of confucianism simply cannot be competitative with europeans in EU3 time frame nor they can become christians because of obvious reasons (we chinese are the best in the world, our emperor is god, bla bla bla...)
Personaly, i think that if EU must be made historicaly correct it shoudn't be possible for mayas, aztecs, africans etc to research things at all, because they don't know the very idea of research.
Wow, lapas. That is seriously one of the most biased and misinformed posts I have ever read on these boards.
Very interesting discussion, along this thread. BUT, I am now playing as USA on the eastern part of the americas, and low and behold, my neighbors to the south, the Cree, has some sort of boats. I cannot tell what kind they are, but I can see them at harbor. So, I guess that answers my question.
Can the native americans ever get boats. Answer:YES.
Can the native americans ever get boats. Answer:YES.
)Varam said:
If you were my student it would be very interesting to hear my biases so i could check your knowledge of history and philosophy
Could you inform me that is wrong in my post? Maybe all these historical and philosophical texts i've read are fake...
As I wrote before American and African AI could build ships. But they have only 1-2 strenght forever and even with explorer they can't explore anything. So this small bug, it's only waste of money for AI.j1sharb said:
lapas said:If you were my student it would be very interesting to hear my biases so i could check your knowledge of history and philosophy
Could you inform me that is wrong in my post? Maybe all these historical and philosophical texts i've read are fake...
What's wrong in your post? Well, nearly everything you wrote was nonsensical and completely contrary to... uh, reality. I don't think your historical and philosophical texts are fake, but if you gained this kind of knowledge from them they are certainly extremely biased. As an example, can you possibly explain what exactly it is about Christianity that makes it a "better religion for innovation" than Islam?
In fact Christian religion stopped research too.Teoretically Western civilization shouldn't be so advanced if thinking in religion terms. Main goal of Christianism is living after life and matters of this world are no such important.Varam said:
But in real peoples don't care too much about it. They stealed, murdered, conquer, killed etc. Probably it's a matter of Western culture to expand. Christianism give only Casus Belli vs. pagans. It's a God will to convert all World. Make money, slave poorer, grab land. Yes - it was the main goal of Christianity in these times
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Varam said:
Have you ever heard about science called theology? Doctrine of christianity is builded as much on philosophy as it is on a bible. Theology is different from other explanations in other religions because it requires to prove statements either logically or empirically. Because of purely doctrinal reasons monks were doings things which are similar to our scientifical research.
islam has no theology as science. It has legal schools which are based not on prove but on authority.
lapas said:
Have you ever seen this -> 0123456789 yes, is the arabic numbers, not byzantine ones, the Discoveries, the european golden ages, initialized with what? Arabic instruments. First World map -> Ottomans. New agriculture techniques and implementation of new types of threes, Medicine, Navigation in general, astronomy, mathematics (algebra), etc. Well, did the byzantines have all this and didn't show it to the world?
lapas said:
You crack me up with your lack of knowledge of real history :rofl: Comparing Christian and Islam based scientific ingenuity? Wait, wait, wait, using religion as basis of scientific improvement? I'd say conservative theology rather handicapped rational thought.
lapas said:
Sorry lapas..., there is no "science" called "theology". You are thinking of "philosophy". "Science" requires emperical knowledge and experiments with reproducible results. Religion requires belief and faith and stacking angels on the heads of pins....
As a note, this thread is now in "Fundies Say The Darndest Things!".
http://fstdt.com/comments.asp?id=23296
Just thought you'd all like to know that.
*Steps away*
http://fstdt.com/comments.asp?id=23296
Just thought you'd all like to know that.
*Steps away*
Dinsdale said:
Copper nails will do and are used even today in building wooden boats since they don't corrode.
Originally Posted by Dinsdale
Or even wooden pegs like the Koreans used under Yi Sunsin. They don't rust and when they get wet they expand, hence keeping them in place that much better
Or even wooden pegs like the Koreans used under Yi Sunsin. They don't rust and when they get wet they expand, hence keeping them in place that much better
Lord Vader said:
Actually, for a long time they were. There was regular trade between Greenland and Iceland up til the mid-to-late 1300's. But in 1386 (or thereabout--I'm doing this from memory) the last small boat that regularly ran between Iceland and Greenland was wrecked and not replaced. There was certainly no technological reason that contact couldn't have been maintained between Greenland and Iceland, but it just wasn't worth it financially to build a replacement to continue the trade.