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Werewolf CXLIX: Dwarves!

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Also, I thought SPLIT was unaffiliated, he never got into contact w/ Ruby via reis, did he? If he was in contact, then that validates esemesas' decision to hunt.
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Then why would he get in contact with me, if he died before I was outed? And the only reason I keep bringing it up is because I haven't heard Johho's opinion yet. We already discussed this in the past, and I seem to recall Johho agreeing that unaffiliated cultists were a terrible idea.
 
reis91 said:
thanks to the awesome cultist rules, Split preferred to trust someone who got outed than someone he actually scanned as a cultist.
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SPLIT never scanned any cultists. He was set to scan trespoe (from the pack he wasn't in contact with) the night he died. bakerydog actually scanned you just before he got lynched but he too was in contact with your pack so if anything that indicates bad communications between the sorcerer and the Ruby pack.

reis91 said:
Then why would he get in contact with me, if he died before I was outed? And the only reason I keep bringing it up is because I haven't heard Johho's opinion yet. We already discussed this in the past, and I seem to recall Johho agreeing that unaffiliated cultists were a terrible idea.
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I happen to like cultists this way. It's not perfect but I think the other variants "cultists promoted to wolves", "attached cultists" and "cultist can win on their own" are all worse.

"cultists promoted to wolves" I think is completely pointless. I'd rather have no cultists at all then if a cultist is really a wolf, just disguised as a cultist in the beginning of the game. Also this makes it impossible for the JL to clear someone unless the seer/priest scans are time synchronized.

"attached cultists" is also a bad idea since a cultist attached to a pack that get wiped out is still alive but can't win. I really, really don't like that to happen. Boring for the player and also sometimes people in that situation do crazy stuff that risk wrecking the game.

"free cultists can attach" is a variant of "attached cultists" and this has the problem with involving the GM in the attachement process and also there is problems handling goodies posing as cultists where the GM need to reveal stuff to the players or risk helping one side or the other or tricking players.

"cultists can win on their own" is probably the best of the variants but I think we would then have games dragging out forever with no hunts while a priestless village lynch one villager after the other looking for the last cultist. The endgame is often pretty boring with no or little disussion as it is.
 
Falc said:
How about Cultists and Wolves both being able to Hunt, they just get scanned by different goodies?
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This... Is actually not a bad idea. Although what it does is just generally make two packs and makes two Seers which are pack-specific.
 
Falc said:
How about Cultists and Wolves both being able to Hunt, they just get scanned by different goodies?
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esemesas said:
This... Is actually not a bad idea. Although what it does is just generally make two packs and makes two Seers which are pack-specific.
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I like it.
 
Falc said:
How about Cultists and Wolves both being able to Hunt, they just get scanned by different goodies?
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That has sort of been done in one of my games, actually. (it was a different kind of hunt, though, one that could turn people into cultists instead of killing them)

Johho said:
I happen to like cultists this way. It's not perfect but I think the other variants "cultists promoted to wolves", "attached cultists" and "cultist can win on their own" are all worse.

"cultists promoted to wolves" I think is completely pointless. I'd rather have no cultists at all then if a cultist is really a wolf, just disguised as a cultist in the beginning of the game. Also this makes it impossible for the JL to clear someone unless the seer/priest scans are time synchronized.

"attached cultists" is also a bad idea since a cultist attached to a pack that get wiped out is still alive but can't win. I really, really don't like that to happen. Boring for the player and also sometimes people in that situation do crazy stuff that risk wrecking the game.

"free cultists can attach" is a variant of "attached cultists" and this has the problem with involving the GM in the attachement process and also there is problems handling goodies posing as cultists where the GM need to reveal stuff to the players or risk helping one side or the other or tricking players.

"cultists can win on their own" is probably the best of the variants but I think we would then have games dragging out forever with no hunts while a priestless village lynch one villager after the other looking for the last cultist. The endgame is often pretty boring with no or little disussion as it is.
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There's also the no-cultists alternative. But I think cultists can be made to work. The latter is doable, if you allow cultists to win with other cultists and possibly get to hunt once all wolves from all wolf packs are eliminated (balancing would have to be done, though).

About the attached cultists losing if they end up as last man on their packs, yes, it would be boring, but they would, in principle, been able to avert the situation (as opposed to this game where cultists couldn't do much to prevent their pack from failing, if the pack did not trust them). Anyway, playing like a zombie to the endgame while your pack's wolves are dropped should not be encouraged.
There's also a similar scenario for villagers where they can't win, if one villager ends up amongst 6 or 7 baddies from different packs (the difference being in that said villager would normally not be aware of this peculiar situation).
I also disagree about not wanting to allow people to mess with the game in funny ways, but if you want, you can autokill the cultist when his pack dies in the attached scenario.

"cultists promoted to wolves" I think is completely pointless. I'd rather have no cultists at all then if a cultist is really a wolf, just disguised as a cultist in the beginning of the game. Also this makes it impossible for the JL to clear someone unless the seer/priest scans are time synchronized.
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This argument could be made against the cursed trait, too. I don't like the idea too much, but it could be balanced adequately, I think.
 
The thing is, and I believe I said something like this before, we need to figure out what we want cultists to be.

Are they Light Wolves, baddies that count for parity but don't hunt?

Are they a tactic to weaken the JL, by making single scans unreliable?

Both concepts require different implementations and the problems stem from the fact we seem to be trying to do both.



Anyway, other idea: attached cultists that lose their pack can go back under deep cover and win with the village.
 
I agree with Falc. Seems like every months I call for a debate on what we want cultists to be, the next GM ignores and just goes ahead with the same setup.

Thing is, I didn't so much mind the cultist rules this game. Of course, I wasn't a cultist. But I like the way there is an incentive for wolves and cultists to distrust each other. I think if the GM can balance the game so that at game start and 90% of the time onward, it doesn't make sense for them to sell each other out, but occasionally in special circumstances it is, then that would be ideal. You don't want a sell-out fest, but the possibility of it adds such more to the game. The trick is balancing it, but I think johho managed it this game and I think GMs will get it right more often than not.


I don't like the 'make cultists a different type of wolf' idea. Not so much in principle as that it's not really an alternative in my view. It's just removing the cultists entirely - cultists who can hunt are wolves, regardless of who can scan them. It's not a bad idea at all, but I just don't recognise it is a cultist suggestion.
 
GM AAR Part 4 Days 6-8​

Day 6 and Night 6
Village lynched son of liberty the plotter werewolf. :)
Ruby hunted Rendap the villager with sorcerous powers
Priest scanned Citizen1oo1 the villager
Sorcerer scanned reis91 the cultist - Why scan a cultist in a pack that he is already in contact with? bad communications?
Infiltrator scanned jpr123 the villager and saw he had no traits.
GA protected aedan777 the villager - Why not Cliges here?
Doc protected jpr123 the villager - popular guy today
Padre stayed with resi91 the cultist
Rendap was set to use his sorcerous powers on Najs the hunter but got eaten

son of liberty said:
Okguys. Bakerydog is the mew sorceror. We need to start working in concert.
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Yes, you do. But you didn't.

Ciryandor said:
trespoe said:
Ciryandor said:
No connection with the pack, I doubt SPLIT was in contact with the other side. I want you to win, so if you agree, I'll need to resort to harsh measures and get my pack murdered.
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I am not in favor of the fake outings, and is the pack in trouble? I suck at fake outings. Are there only 2 packs? if so, we should still have several wolves.
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My pack is in my opinion in great trouble unless the leader gets killed ASAP. Getting the leader to reveal themselves and get offed or lose their ability is worth more right now, because it'll allow our pack to sabotage villager votes. If you find the Leader, I'll have him killed.

Personally, I think that compared to the other pack, we are completely sunk in getting chances to win; and you have a better chance of winning with the other pack. You're completely free to contact them if any of them gets outed; and if that happens, I'll make sure that the baddies run a win up and wreck this hidden JL that I know has been manipulating people behind the scenes.
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In hindsight this is pretty funny but at the time it was probably a fairly correct assesment of the situation.

Cliges said:
muttoneer said:
I have a role that would be of use to the good side, though is rather a one-shot deal, if you get my drift...
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M offers his services.
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Meanwhile in the Justice League, population 4 (ex-seer, priest, a villager with priestly powers and now also a hunter)

Day 7 and Night 7
Village lynched bakerydog the sorcerer. :)
Golden was set to hunt The Arch Mede the werewolf but with a last minute change decided to hunt Eternaly_Lost the cursed villager :)
Priest scanned jpr123 the villager
Sorcerer was set to scan eternaly_Lost the cursed villager but got lynched.
Infiltrator was recharging
GA protected Paendrag the villager
Doc protected Paendrag the villager - popular guy today
Padre stayed with trespoe the cultist
Najs the hunter was set hunt aedan77 the villager but changed his mind minutes before the deadline.

trespoe said:
Ciryandor said:
Who do you want to get leaderlynched today? Paendrag or Lemeard?
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Are you sure you want to do it?

The problem is that I think the village has this game in the bag already, providing that their JL is competent enough.

They have had a non-wolf (Cliges) available since night 0 that only needed to be scanned by the priest. Since there has been no outing of him, I would assume he is double cleared. Add to this that no top villager has been hunted/lynched (seer, preist, GA, doc) and no cursed have been hit. Two cursed have been lynched, however. I cannot scan for cursed/blessed/ apprentices. Any decent players in the JL should have a list of double clears by now and be ready to lower the boom on the baddies just based off of the list of players that haven't been scanned. The nets are closing in unless we nail the seer. It is already day 7? or so.

another item: see what happens with the votes today. I am suspicious of the votes on bakerydog. If he is a baddie, then those who are giving no reason and voting him are probably JL. They may be doing a non-announcement and lynching him. I wonder if that is what happened to SoL.
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Golden pack still depressed and suicidal.

Ciryandor said:
johho888 said:
Ciryandor said:
Please hunt The Arch Mede, jonti-h, Lemeard, muttoneer in that order. If there was orders for the hunt sent before this from me; please disregard this and use those instead.
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I've got two hunt orders already from you and they were all for The Arch Mede. I'll make sure to kill him at least three times in the update. ;)
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Shocking. Has esemesas been online yet?
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esemesas said:
johho888 said:
Ciryandor said:
hunt E_L, Rendap, Najs

TAM is too much of a loose cannon to be anyone important.
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Eternaly_Lost was cursed and now joins the Golden pack which consists of Ciryandor, esemesas and Eternaly_Lost. You hunt odd numbered nights.
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Whee! Also, that leader order was messed up :D Thought deadline was 23:00 for some reason... I really can't concentrate today.
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Golden pack not so depressed and suicidal.

Day 8 and Night 8
Village lynched The Arch Mede the werewolf. :) - the village is on a roll, that's the third unscanned baddie in a row they lynched
Ruby hunted gliomartion the blessed villager and used up his bless.
Priest scanned aedan777 the villager
Infiltrator scanned Eternaly_Lost the werewolf and saw he was a plotter - Why scan someone in your own pack? Seems a bit of a waste but I guess that is the downside with unattached cultists
GA protected jonti-h the damsel in distress
Doc switched his protection around a lot before settling on the GA
Padre stayed with Paendrag the villager

Adamus said:
Battle bunny said:
Adamus said:
since Sol has biten the dust it falls on me to be your main point of contact for the remaining pack members. Can you give me an update on whats happened your end, any contacts or knowledge you can pass on to assist us?
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I'm not sure about what you mean by "main point of contact for the remaining pack members". Are you admitting you're a wolf here?
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Looks like im compromised if the other pack get my name from battle bunny. Be warned.
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Ruby pack trying to reorganize their communications.

The Arch Mede said:
Adamus said:
Hunt Glio
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I reckon glio is a good hunt. The same goes for citizen and aedan. Those are the ones that look most like JL to me (plus Cliges).
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It's hard to find a coordinated JL steering the lynches when no such thing exists.

Falc said:
*sigh* Are there actually any Cultists left in the game?
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Anyway, other idea: attached cultists that lose their pack can go back under deep cover and win with the village.
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Explain exactly what you mean by "lose your pack". Because I can see a potential problem with that idea - and perhaps reis has seen it to - that would utterly make it unworkable.
 
Johho - was my infiltrator one-off or full infiltrator? Because in one of your AAR's you implied it was one off, but I never knew it when I was alive.
 
Falc said:
Nah, 'cause see, if one Seer then gets whacked, a whole pack is safe.
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Which is exactly what happened when we tried this way back when.
 
marty99 said:
Johho - was my infiltrator one-off or full infiltrator? Because in one of your AAR's you implied it was one off, but I never knew it when I was alive.
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It was a one off, you had "Infiltrating powers" whereas "Infiltrator" is the recurring thing. You'd be surprised at how many people mistakes one off and recurring abilities. I just don't know what to do about is, can anyone come up with a better name than "powers" to really signal once-in-a-game scans/protections?
 
johho888 said:

"cultists promoted to wolves" I think is completely pointless. I'd rather have no cultists at all then if a cultist is really a wolf, just disguised as a cultist in the beginning of the game. Also this makes it impossible for the JL to clear someone unless the seer/priest scans are time synchronized.
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Which was, of course, half the point when I started using it. :)
 
Well I'm sure glad Najs didn't kill me, though I'm amused that the wolves thought I was one of the most likely to be in the JL.
 
GM AAR Part 5 Days 9-11​

Day 9 and Night 9
Village lynched Citizen1oo1 the brutal villager - Also here is where the priest outed himself and where he revealed to the baddies there was no seer anymore. Wouldn't it have been better to let the wolves keep looking for the seer?
Citizen1oo1 brutalized Rendap2 the doc - at least he remembered to change his orders from the seer but I'm not sure this was an improvement.
Golden hunted Najs the hunter who didn't manage to take a wolf with him :(
Priest scanned the GA
Infiltrator was recharging
GA protected Paendrag the villager
Doc was set to protect the priest but got brutalized
Padre stayed with noone :(

Cliges said:
Paendrag said:
SO.. youre the closest we have to somekind of mouthpiece..
A person contacted me claiming to be GA.. if you have that spot filled we have a possible wolf.. if there s a JL ofc..
And yes Im a villager and no I dont know why he contacted me.. but i recommended your name as most likly have any contacts..
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I told him to go ahead, and that I could work with him if he needed it. I mentioned no names thus far.
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The GA seeks contact with the JL through a villager...

Day 10 and Night 10
Village lynched Yakman2 the robber
Citizen1oo2 plotter sniped to kill muttoneer the hunter
Ruby hunted gliomartio the blessed villager with priestly powers - Why? If he is blessed better let the village wonder what happened. If he was GA protected chances are he will be again 2 days later
Priest scanned taius23 the SA padre who again failed to see who or what scanned him :(
Infiltrator scanned esemesas the werewolf in his own pack and saw he was 2nd in command - Well, that was unexpected..
GA protected the priest
Padre stayed with the ex-seer - looks like the JL is finally getting its protections in order :)
Priest used his sorcerous powers to scan Lemeard the villager
muttoneer the hunter was set to kill Lemeard the villager - so Citizen1oo2's plotter vote actually didn't kill any more baddies than what would have happened anyway
gliomartio was set to use his priestly powers on the priest but got hunted

gliomarto said:
johho888 said:
You are a villager with priestly powers.
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And on Falc priestly powers I shall use. I hope he survives that.
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Isn't there someone else that you also should hope survive? ;)

Cliges said:
Falc said:
I have no clue why but both Tamius and Lemeard have asked me if I scanned them. I really don't get why they would want to know this or what it could get them.
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Yeah, and I don't know whence all this suspicion regarding your true status as the priest.
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Probably why they got scanned.

Day 11 and Night 11
Village lynched Citizen1oo2 the plotter cultist - That's what you get for making a TIE... unless of course it kills a baddie
Golden hunted jonti-h the damsel in distress - Must say I was surprised to see this but maybe they were afraid of GA/padre?
Priest scanned muttoneer2 the cultist :)
Infiltrator was recharging
GA protected the padre
Padre stayed with the priest
Paendrag used his healing powers to protect the GA - looks like the JL is finally getting its protections in order :)

esemesas said:
Ciryandor said:
You think he gets shot for this? I'm very scared for his sudden perk-up in activity, and it's easier to run/mislynch Lemeard, as he has a fishy early-game voting record.
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*sigh*

If it will get you to calm down, yes, we can hunt jonti tonight. Just don't start freaking out and do something stupid.
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