Mongols, ultimogeniture & elective gavelkind.

Talq · Oct 29, 2014

I've been trying to track down the reasoning why mongols have ultimogeniture as it exists in game, because to be frank from what I've read of Mongol history (which is admittedly just the empire), as well of the practicalities of it too frequently putting infants on the throne, its looked odd.

I'm not finding the support.

Firstly, what wikipedia has to say

Ultimogeniture of the ancestral seat was traditional in Mongolia. Genghis Khan passed the Mongolian homeland of the Mongol Empire to his fourth son, Tolui[6] as the empire with its conquests was partitioned between his four sons. Among Mongols, each son received a part of the family herd as he married, with the elder son receiving more than the younger son, and the youngest son receiving the family tent in addition to his part of the family herd.[7] Likewise, each son inherited a part of the family's camping lands and pastures, with the elder son receiving more than the younger son. The eldest son inherited the farthest camping lands and pastures, and each son in turn inherited camping lands and pastures closer to the family tent until the youngest son inherited the camping lands and pastures immediately surrounding the family tent. Family units would often remain near each other and in close cooperation, though extended families would inevitably break up after a few generations.

Note that Tolui got the ancestral lands (Ghengis (obviously) having conquered substantial territory by this point, NOT what we would call the primary title - the next Great Khan was his third son Ogedai, history recording it being due to his first two sons being quarrelsome, and doubts over the parentage of his eldest son. It did later pass to Tolui's line through intrigues after Ogedai's death, but in that case, the lines of the first two sons had power bases too remote to be considered as Great Khan.

There is more than a little evidence that (at least in the early generations) high titles were elective (as per the period, this wasn't the modern concept of elective, sons and the dynasty were favored in practice, although other relatives got a shot) - this was a key factor in the switch from Guyuk to Mongke for Great khan.

Admittedly its often not clear how many sons the previous holder had (for example Batu was Jochi's second son (of 14)) and what had happened to the other sons but given the number of cases brothers succeed brothers, that they tended to favor the elder (who would have had time to build a reputation and power base) can be inferred . Oh yes, and they are almost invariably adults.

Would it not be better to move the mongols to elective gavelkind for duke+ titles instead?

Onisuzume · Oct 30, 2014

Mongols, and maybe other altaics, should get a Khuruldai succession instead.

StSob · Oct 30, 2014

This is kind of strange indeed. AFAIK the Mongol empire as a whole had some sort of elective succession. Only the Genghizids were electable though. The youngest son inherited the ancestral lands and was acting as a regent during the election. However, this is how it worked in the empire. I don't know if there were any stable succession laws in the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate. At the start those were the imperial provinces, and the initial leaders were appointed by the great khan. After that it seems like the succession was decided just by having enough power to seize the throne(and being a Genghizid was a must; non-dynastic rulers had to install a puppet Genghizid on the throne and rule as a "governor")

AchedTeacher · Oct 30, 2014

I've been saying this for ages. The point is, people complained Mongols should get ultimogeniture, Paradox members googled "Did Mongols have ultimogeniture succession" and the answer was sort of "Yes, but ..."

And they just added it in after that.

I agree, the fact that it results so often in infants as the sovereign of such a huge tribal nation seems odd, especially considering they usually only followed the strong.

darthfanta · Oct 30, 2014

Onisuzume said:
Mongols, and maybe other altaics, should get a Khuruldai succession instead.

Isn't that just feudal elective ?

Michael B · Oct 30, 2014

right now, after CM, the Mongols have open elective succession .

Which is resulting in the two hordes Khan's in my current game being succeeded by non- Mongol rulers.

Talq · Oct 30, 2014

darthfanta said:
It's that just feudal elective ?

1. Genghizids only (well for the mongols). Steppe tribes would probably be more open (especially if the previous chief only left minors or females) given that Ghengis had a fairly unique level of prestige, although any very successful tribe will tend to favour the ruling dynasty for generations.
2. It would require an academic to tell us what the other sons got, but in game terms one suspects they got some land - ie some form of gavelkind was in play.

Michael B said:
right now, after CM, the Mongols have open elective succession .

Which is resulting in the two hordes Khan's in my current game being succeeded by non- Mongol rulers.

Its a bug in 2.2 and so far as I know, fixed in the betas.

darthfanta · Oct 30, 2014

Talq said:
1. Genghizids only (well for the mongols). Steppe tribes would probably be more open (especially if the previous chief only left minors or females) given that Ghengis had a fairly unique level of prestige, although any very successful tribe will tend to favour the ruling dynasty for generations.
2. It would require an academic to tell us what the other sons got, but in game terms one suspects they got some land - ie some form of gavelkind was in play.

Its a bug in 2.2 and so far as I know, fixed in the betas.

I was under the impression that the gavelkind bit was only there for the sons of Ghenghis. Afterwards,there wasn't really any gavelkind in the four Khanates.

Onisuzume · Oct 30, 2014

StSob said:
This is kind of strange indeed. AFAIK the Mongol empire as a whole had some sort of elective succession. Only the Genghizids were electable though. The youngest son inherited the ancestral lands and was acting as a regent during the election. However, this is how it worked in the empire. I don't know if there were any stable succession laws in the Golden Horde and the Ilkhanate. At the start those were the imperial provinces, and the initial leaders were appointed by the great khan. After that it seems like the succession was decided just by having enough power to seize the throne(and being a Genghizid was a must; non-dynastic rulers had to install a puppet Genghizid on the throne and rule as a "governor")

Genghizid? Don't you mean Borjigin?

It's that just feudal elective ?

Does feudal elective involve bribing?
Because that's what Temüjin did.

grisamentum · Oct 30, 2014

Michael B said:
right now, after CM, the Mongols have open elective succession .

Which is resulting in the two hordes Khan's in my current game being succeeded by non- Mongol rulers.

That's a bug that's already fixed.

unmerged(47028) · Oct 30, 2014

I actually like Republic government to be added to tribes government. It becomes elective, but only some leaders of clans would become leaders by using bribes or prestige.

grisamentum · Oct 30, 2014

Talq said:
Would it not be better to move the mongols to elective gavelkind for duke+ titles instead?

The problem I see here is that it would mean the Mongols become too weak. The better solution would be to exclude children from ultimogeniture, and/or to use some kind of ultimo-gavelkind.

The distinction between "ancestral lands" and "primary title" is a good point, but sadly CK2 has absolutely no way of indicating what your "ancestral lands" are. Holding a title for one day is just as good as holding it for a thousand years.

Big Blue Blob · Oct 30, 2014

I think elective gavelkind much better respresents Mongol succession than ultimogeniture. Mongols did not routinely leave their empire whole, but ruled by a 2 year old. Really, the whole mechanic should be reworked for them.

darthfanta · Oct 30, 2014

Onisuzume said:
Genghizid? Don't you mean Borjigin?

Does feudal elective involve bribing?
Because that's what Temüjin did.

You most certainly bribe a lot under feudal elective.

Big Blue Blob said:
I think elective gavelkind much better respresents Mongol succession than ultimogeniture. Mongols did not routinely leave their empire whole, but ruled by a 2 year old. Really, the whole mechanic should be reworked for them.

They did that for the first generation only.The subsequent khanates weren't gavelkinded.

Big Blue Blob · Oct 31, 2014

True. But nor were they ruled by 2 year olds. Other successions should be available.

VolitionNewlove · Oct 31, 2014

Onisuzume said:
Genghizid? Don't you mean Borjigin?

Let's hope the practice of using the hideous "-id" name instead of the actual dynasty name doesn't spread to the Mongols. We've already lost the Arab and Iranian dynasty names to the menace known as Id...

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Mongols, ultimogeniture & elective gavelkind.

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