How much of an advantage do the allies start with at the beginning of the game?

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Now that isn't exactly historic either. There was a French tank division (3e Division Cuirassée) near Sedan that was supposed to attack the bridgehead but ran into parts of the 10th Panzer-Division and Infantry regiment Großdeutschland, which Guderian had send to do a feint attack. With the 1st and 2nd Panzer-Division already having moved on, the French had a sizeable numerical advantage in terms of armor. The 4e Division cuirassée wasn't in Belgium either, though it didn't have the strength of a full division. Stating that pretty much all of the french armor was in Belgium is simply incorrect. They had enough tanks to press the attack on multiple occasions, they just neglected to do so or did so only half-hearted.

Yes, the 3rd division. In War in Europe I always used to shift them to backing up the northern end of the Maginot so that when the mandatory blunder rule made me advance into Belgium, the 3rd would be in position to oppose the inevitable thrust through the Ardennes.
 
In order to get the historical result of The Fall of France, and the more even War it gives. Its Good to have France nerfed if the player is any country but Germany. Playing as Germany I want the defeat of France to require as much skill and strategy as in real life. Playing as France I want a French victory to be possibly if I deal with the problems of poor leadership, poor doctrines, poor moral and poor strategy.

Playing as the USA I cant think of anything more boring than finding out that the war is over and I don't even get to fight.
 
I would like to see this balanced properly in the new game and like or or not like it the western allies had to ability to make it very hard for the Germans to win.

To be fair, I think the Germans still had the overall advantage in 1940 - that's what earlier rearmament nets you - because the Germans simply had more and better reserve Divisions. The main change had 7th Army been at Sedan was no spectacular breakthrough. It would have been much more of a slog and would have revealed many of the inherent weaknesses of the Panzer Corps which were largely unnoticed in the West but very much taken into account for by the Germans in Barbarossa. This is why the German Panzer Division TO&E is almost completely different in 1941 than in 1940.

As for the 7th army, I'd ask for sources, since I've never seen it have 2 tank divisions. One yes, and with mechanized infantry divisions too. France had a few tanks divisions (3 or 4 depending on the sources).

Yeah I checked Showalter again and I had it with one tank Division too many (it was two mech Divisions, not two tank Divisions). That said the French mech had a lot of tanks on their own which is why the whole formation is really comparable to a Panzer Corps or even Panzer Army if we're being generous.

Also, Germany didn't really used trucks to speed up their assault. They didn't have that much trucks, and used a lot of pack animals to do the work, which consume much less fuel. Trucks for the panzer divisions though, yes.

Trucks were vital for moving forward the Panzergrenadier and motorized formations, plus supplies for the Panzers. No trucks, no lightning advance to Abbeville as the tanks would run out of gas eventually and they can't hold ground without truck-borne infantry. That's the thing about Panzer Divisions - they are much more than just tanks. In fact by late war a Panzer Division was more liable to have as many Panzergrenadier regiments as they had Panzer regiments.

Now that isn't exactly historic either. There was a French tank division (3e Division Cuirassée) near Sedan that was supposed to attack the bridgehead but ran into parts of the 10th Panzer-Division and Infantry regiment Großdeutschland, which Guderian had send to do a feint attack. With the 1st and 2nd Panzer-Division already having moved on, the French had a sizeable numerical advantage in terms of armor. The 4e Division cuirassée wasn't in Belgium either, though it didn't have the strength of a full division. Stating that pretty much all of the french armor was in Belgium is simply incorrect. They had enough tanks to press the attack on multiple occasions, they just neglected to do so or did so only half-hearted.

There's a semantic issue at play here.

The 3rd French "Armored" Division was not really an armored Division in the same sense as a German Panzer Division. It was a "Cuirassee" Division, meaning it was essentially a heavy "shock attack" formation in line with Napoleonic French cavalry. That's why the Division had almost no infantry or recon elements - just lots of (very short-legged) Char B tanks. And these tanks wreaked havoc - the record for the single greatest "one against many" tank victory was won by a lone Char B at Stonne (and the only contender to that title is the KV-2 at Rasenai), but the problem is that they could not hold ground and had no idea where the enemy was because the Cuirassees were never intended to operate outside of an entire army. Finally, that's still one tank "Division" against an entire Panzer Army - not winning odds by any measure.

It was essentially a giant support formation - meant to be attached to an army - and not an independent tank unit. Which is also why it ended up deployed in penny-packets - not only because of coordination issues and command failures; but because the Cuirassees were trained to operate in small numbers to support infantry breakthrough. They were never meant to be an all-arms formation that could operate independently and move quickly. That's why the gas tanks of their tanks were so tiny in the first place.

Which really goes to show why all of the "penny packet" claims are so pointless. The best-known French "Armored" Divisions were in fact incapable of independent fast-moving "blitzkrieg" style operations. The units that were capable of them were in fact the mechanized and cavalry units who had the excellent Sumoas and truck-borne infantry support - most of which were in Belgium. Close examination of the actual unit compositions and doctrines will reveal these nuances far better than simply looking at the unit's names and counting the number of tanks they had (which for the most part were very short-legged H35 types in the Sedan area anyway; which were also incapable of fast-moving operations).
 
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the History Channel version laced with a bit of French/British apologism (really, the French and Brits tried very hard to make it as though the Germans were so superior in 1940. In reality, it was discovered by the Americans in 1944 that the French and Brits had completely lied about the Order of Battle of 1940, and the French/British actually had more tanks than the Germans).

Almost there. There was also delay in mobilizing for war that really cost the French in with troop training for their tanks and the production of modern equipment in sufficient quantities in a short period of time. How this works needs some considerable investigation. As you will quickly find out depending on your source (I used Zaloga for example) that the actual modern tanks the French had was about near parity to what the Germans had produced to date. If you include the FT-17 and other essentially older models this is where the figures get a bit misplaced and thus looks like the French had armor superiority. Near parity is probably accurate.

Compounding the French Planning was the lack of foresight in the problems of doing too many things at once even if it appears they had several months to prepare before the attack on the West. When French industry marks a tank as "complete" it merely means most of the tank has been built. This does not mean that the tank itself is ready to be driven to the front right from the factory! There are some essential configuration that were entirely missing once the manufacture completed the core of the tank and that was usually missing weapons or other things the manufacturer had no control over. In other cases turrets were missing. In their case the contract was "done". The only reliable number for a ready tank are those in the tank pool the Army had ensure were ready to be used by field units.

In addition to this, other than a few specifically trained units that acted something like a Panzer Division, most of the newly recruited French Army were simply conscripts. We take for granted that modern equipment made in these days generally should not have as many automotive problems right from the equipment park. Early war tanks frequently broke down, had a number of glaring defects, and otherwise required the crew to know a lot more about their tank than just pretend to being experts on day 1. So what happens is with a fresh conscript army, as soon as that tank breaks down they don't know how to trouble-shoot and fix the vehicle to continue the battle. Instead of having the vehicle fall into enemy hands the tanks usually were sabotage or blown up with the crew walking back. This is also mirrored on the Eastern Front as Soviet conscripts also could not repair and blew up their tanks in the largest tank battle of the war in the Brody-Dubno area. The Soviet Union had time to correct this training gap and we see the turn around in the winter of '42-43 where the tank crews have enough training to not waste such precious war material just because their tanks broke down and they could not get it back into running condition.

The Wehrmacht in comparison have a wealth of experience and training that far out weighted the amount of conscript armies in the minds of the French military had in mind or looking at the paper strength. After all, for inventing the swarm theory with legions of FT-17s in the First World War, there was not too much taken into account the learning needed for new equipment for this conscript army that managed to lose many tanks and ended up fighting in a penny packet manner, without infantry support in many cases. Also, the Wehrmacht had enough support personal and sufficiently trained crew so that many of the loses they had could be recovered so long as the vehicle was not totally destroyed and thus a complete write-off. After all, the mobilization of the Austrian Anchluss or the Czech integration also gave enough experience to the crews in terms of breakdown and maintenance required so they can tweak the amount of support required from such large armored formations blitzing in these countries with hilly terrain. The French had ZERO experience of that scale prior to the outbreak of war for the rest of the Army to catch up.

NOW, what the Wehrmacht learned from the French Campaign, besides the inadequate gun of the 37mm AT gun (also used in the Mark 3), was that they dedicated TOO MUCH ARMOR to a handful of their panzer divisions and not enough armored defense spread out through out the rest of the essentially horse-drawn divisions that could stop an armored counter attack when they ocurred. After all, the majority of the non-Panzer divisions had to make due with Flak 88s as the door knocker 37mm wasn't up to the task if they were hit with a French tanks supporting their infantry units. To facilitate a better flexible mix to any situation on the battlefield, this gap was rectified, as best they could, prior to the start of Barbarossa on an attempt to standardize the Panzer Arm with the removal of the Panzer I, replacing the divisions with the up-gunned Panzer IIIs, and trying to produce many 50mm AT guns (which the infantry still largely had the 37mm guns). The TO&E in Barbarossa had an essentially better equipped army than it did in the French campaign removing the chief obsolete vehicle, the Panzer I, from most frontline duty. The stop-gap Panzer II filled a niche supporting the more numerous Panzer IIIs, IVs, and Pz38s and did hold a good account of itself in recce role in the early part of the Eastern Campaign being adequate against the BTs and T-26s. Now there was a lot more infantry to support the amount of tanks in the division so it achieved the goal of being a very mobile and effective strike force able to seize an objective and hold it.
 
The Wehrmacht in comparison have a wealth of experience and training that far out weighted the amount of conscript armies in the minds of the French military had in mind or looking at the paper strength. After all, for inventing the swarm theory with legions of FT-17s in the First World War, there was not too much taken into account the learning needed for new equipment for this conscript army that managed to lose many tanks and ended up fighting in a penny packet manner, without infantry support in many cases. Also, the Wehrmacht had enough support personal and sufficiently trained crew so that many of the loses they had could be recovered so long as the vehicle was not totally destroyed and thus a complete write-off. After all, the mobilization of the Austrian Anchluss or the Czech integration also gave enough experience to the crews in terms of breakdown and maintenance required so they can tweak the amount of support required from such large armored formations blitzing in these countries with hilly terrain. The French had ZERO experience of that scale prior to the outbreak of war for the rest of the Army to catch up.

You might want to read up on the post just above yours ;).

But I wanted to highlight this specifically because yes, this was indeed one of the key differences between the two armies, which in large part accounts for the lopsided loss ratio claims.

That said, what's important to realize is that as the Germans discovered in France 1944 or the Soviets in Barbarossa 1941, no amount of repair training will help if enemy tank Divisions are already roaming in your rear areas and shooting up all the repair yards. This is why the mistakes of the French high command in 1940 and the unpreparedness of the Soviet Army in 1941 were so crucial to the German victories - because they allowed large Panzer forces to penetrate through the frontlines and wreak havoc in the rear.

When the Soviets figured out how to stop these deep penetrations, their permanent tank losses dropped enormously. This was why, despite supposedly losing all of their 6,000 tanks at Kursk to damage (a highly debatable figure to begin with, since based on the loss tallies the Soviets would be at negative nine hundred tanks), the Soviets were pretty much able to bring most of them back online and thus launch an enormous counter-attack that drove back the Germans; who in turn lost the ability to recover their Panzers (leading to a threefold increase in losses).

And really, it's this nuance of war that is lost on most amateur observers. Tank Divisions are rarely lost because every tank was knocked out by enemy guns. Rather, tank Divisions die because they stop being able to recover and put back into service their tanks - the vast majority of which are inevitably "knocked out" due to combat damage or simple wear and tear. Indeed, some British Armored Divisions in 1944 lost 80% of their tanks during the drive across France, but lost less than 10% of them to combat. The rest were breakdowns that had to be repaired (and were in fact brought back to service).
 
When the Soviets figured out how to stop these deep penetrations, their permanent tank losses dropped enormously. This was why, despite supposedly losing all of their 6,000 tanks at Kursk to damage (a highly debatable figure to begin with, since based on the loss tallies the Soviets would be at negative nine hundred tanks), the Soviets were pretty much able to bring most of them back online and thus launch an enormous counter-attack that drove back the Germans; who in turn lost the ability to recover their Panzers (leading to a threefold increase in losses).

I would debate that figure too which I think just is a bulk armored vehicle amounts which probably includes non-tank units like assault guns. 6000 tanks seems a bit too much as we know now the STAVKA already had planned their Summer Offensive and were waiting for the Wehrmacht to commit their troops to Kursk. In fact, Soviet intelligence was so good that prior to the actual start of the battle the artillery shelled the assembling Panzers for the attack. Unknown to many Wehrmacht officers was the reserve armies of Kursk not on their maps as I learned from David M. Glantz that sat just East ready to counter attack. The Soviets began their Counter Offensive the day after the tank battle of Prokhorovka and advanced to the Dnieper River. Every Soviet Front was on the attack west of Moscow to the Black Sea. Pretty massive in terms of scale, distance, and size.
 
I would debate that figure too which I think just is a bulk armored vehicle amounts which probably includes non-tank units like assault guns. 6000 tanks seems a bit too much as we know now the STAVKA already had planned their Summer Offensive and were waiting for the Wehrmacht to commit their troops to Kursk. In fact, Soviet intelligence was so good that prior to the actual start of the battle the artillery shelled the assembling Panzers for the attack. Unknown to many Wehrmacht officers was the reserve armies of Kursk not on their maps as I learned from David M. Glantz that sat just East ready to counter attack. The Soviets began their Counter Offensive the day after the tank battle of Prokhorovka and advanced to the Dnieper River. Every Soviet Front was on the attack west of Moscow to the Black Sea. Pretty massive in terms of scale, distance, and size.

US/Britain code breaking intelligence, not soviet
 
US/Britain code breaking intelligence, not soviet

Actually Soviet. They even had a rough estimation of the Wehrmacht forces committed to the battle whereas the Wehrmacht only had if for the immediate forces around the Salient but not further East. After all, the Soviets have enormous intelligence opportunities given the proximity and depth of the country the Wehrmacht was in.
 
No myth.
Every German tank had one, while for the French, IIRC it was only the command tank and for the russian those only if they were lucky. That forced both Russian and French tanks to operate in the infamous 'Hen and Chicken' formation which hit the russian even harder because of the bad visibility of the T-34 and the heavy workload for the commander (which was an issue for French tanks as well).
Overall the German tanks were 'better' because they could be and were better lead, had more crew, better division of labour and greater tactical awareness.

Agree, but the french and sov tanks had better armour and guns, so the germans rally used their advantage well.
 
Fra had really good tanks, but airforce was Either old or the modern stuff were to few. Most art was ww1 stuff, and they had to few at guns. And most fra generals were leftovers from ww1 who thought they were gona fight ww1 again
 
I found Zinegatas analyze of 7th Frence army very interesting and he got me to reread about the 2 amoured divisions that was new for me but I found he was nearly right 1th DLM division with 174 tanks mixed Somua S-35 and HotchKiss H 35 the second was
an tankbrigade named GBC 510 and compriced 2 tank battalions of 45 R 35 each.I thik we can count it as a half armoured division.7th army had 2 motorized divisions (9th,25th) and 3 infantery divisions too.( 4th,21th,6oth).I do not write this to argue .Because
i agree of all he has wrote about the battle of France.Then we talking about leadership I think the most important facet of german tactics remained the mission directive,allowing subordinates the maximum freedom to accomplish their assigned task.That freedom
of action provided tactical superiority over the more schematic and textbook approach employed by the french and english.
 
That sounds good except for one major point.

If the armies are well represented vis a vis history, how is Germany supposed to fare well assuming the French player does not advance heavily into Belgium allowing most of his forces to be cutoff? If the French simply hold at the Belgian border and have enough defense in depth to avoid breakthrough and encirclement, Germany is then forced to slog its way to Paris. Even if they are able to do this it will be much slower and costlier than history.

The German player will have to use the advantages they had in history. First, a well oiled and modern airforce, which completely dominated during the battle of France. The other, working in synergy, was a armored force with high level organisation. So while Britain had brigade level armor and the French had division level armor, the Germans operated Panzer Groups, which were army sized formation. As such the Allies in 1940 were capable of only tactical level counters, while the Germans could carry out strategic level offensives. There simply was no way to stop an advancing Panzer Group without a sizeable mobile reserve. Infantry was too slow.
 
In terms of game balance, I felt the AI (in HOI 3) was following the timeline of WW2 a bit too much even though the game started in 1936 and other Clausewitz Engine games usually have a solid non-historical approach or varied game play that gives the players some new choices. Of course, I don't expect my advisers to die from stress (like they do in Crusader Kings 2 as if they choked on the non-polluted non-industrial air back then), but it would be nice for a change to have some friction with the Allies and Commitern or have some interesting diplomatic features to woo in the neutral countries with more interesting trade deals, tech exchange, and anything else.

After all, I would like to have some sort of benefit or reason to keep Austria as an ally as Germany rather than Anchluss to change some historical fluff a bit and see how the game plays. I'm sure the folks of Paradox, after they release the game, will review such decisions and maybe come up with something interesting for folks that don't necessarily want to use a more diplomatic approach to playing Germany than just raise legions of mustache plumbers.
 
After all, I would like to have some sort of benefit or reason to keep Austria as an ally as Germany rather than Anchluss to change some historical fluff a bit and see how the game plays. I'm sure the folks of Paradox, after they release the game, will review such decisions and maybe come up with something interesting for folks that don't necessarily want to use a more diplomatic approach to playing Germany than just raise legions of mustache plumbers.

Enacting the Anschluss increases threat, so there is a trade off.

There is a perfectly valid and interesting alternate historical track to take by not enacting the Anschluss at the standard time. And in that game, I could have never enacted the Anschluss if I didn't want to. I could have put them in the Axis as an ally instead.

I don't understand why people think they can't do interesting ahistorical things in HOI3. Germany is practically in the drivers seat for all things. While an AI Germany will lock-step its way through history (at least until the Soviets are defeated), a human Germany can change history radically.
 
After all, I would like to have some sort of benefit or reason to keep Austria as an ally as Germany rather than Anchluss to change some historical fluff a bit and see how the game plays. I'm sure the folks of Paradox, after they release the game, will review such decisions and maybe come up with something interesting for folks that don't necessarily want to use a more diplomatic approach to playing Germany than just raise legions of mustache plumbers.
But, you yourself basically show us it is very hard to come up with a reason to not annex Austria.

There is usually plenty of arguments as to why you would want to go ahistorical with things that make sense to do ahistoricaly. Like it is easy to argue about alternative plausible strategies for Germany, such as not build surface navy and focus on subs, or actually be prepared to execute sealion before invading USSR, or maybe allying with Poland to attack USSR first, which should make allies less wiling to attack you right away, and there is plenty of interests in keeping US out of war, to the point you might want to side with China, which was friendly with USA, just to keep USA from backstabing you, or at least delay backstab.

Austria just seems like one of the cases where ahistorical option simply makes you weaker, and thus is needless. If not for WW2, Austria could just be a province of Germany, like Bavaria, there is plenty of historical and cultural reasons for that.
 
I would debate that figure too which I think just is a bulk armored vehicle amounts which probably includes non-tank units like assault guns. 6000 tanks seems a bit too much as we know now the STAVKA already had planned their Summer Offensive and were waiting for the Wehrmacht to commit their troops to Kursk. In fact, Soviet intelligence was so good that prior to the actual start of the battle the artillery shelled the assembling Panzers for the attack. Unknown to many Wehrmacht officers was the reserve armies of Kursk not on their maps as I learned from David M. Glantz that sat just East ready to counter attack. The Soviets began their Counter Offensive the day after the tank battle of Prokhorovka and advanced to the Dnieper River. Every Soviet Front was on the attack west of Moscow to the Black Sea. Pretty massive in terms of scale, distance, and size.

Yep. I have to note though one oft-ignored mistake that the Soviets made at Kursk. Despite having a pretty good intel picture they actually made the mistake of thinking the main hammer blow was coming from the north, instead of the south. Which is why close examination of the Soviet OOB reveals that they actually deployed all of their heaviest anti-tank elements (including the first batch of SU-152s) in the north as opposed to the south. This mistake was actually in large part why the SS Panzer Corps got so far in the first place.
 
But, you yourself basically show us it is very hard to come up with a reason to not annex Austria.

There is usually plenty of arguments as to why you would want to go ahistorical with things that make sense to do ahistoricaly. Like it is easy to argue about alternative plausible strategies for Germany, such as not build surface navy and focus on subs, or actually be prepared to execute sealion before invading USSR, or maybe allying with Poland to attack USSR first, which should make allies less wiling to attack you right away, and there is plenty of interests in keeping US out of war, to the point you might want to side with China, which was friendly with USA, just to keep USA from backstabing you, or at least delay backstab.

Austria just seems like one of the cases where ahistorical option simply makes you weaker, and thus is needless. If not for WW2, Austria could just be a province of Germany, like Bavaria, there is plenty of historical and cultural reasons for that.

Well, the annexation of Austria was in fact a necessity for the Germans, albeit not for reasons usually cited.

The real "bonus" of Austrian annexation - aside from the additional population, soldierly, and industry - was the seizure of the Austrian foreign currency reserves. The reality of Germany in this period is that it had become a pariah state in the international money market - to the point it was almost impossible to trade Reichmarks for British Pounds or American Dollars to buy essential raw materials for Germany's import-export economy. Hence, while Germany was technically not yet under blockade at this point, the Germans had to resort to increasingly convoluted financial measures (causing Adam Tooze, in his masterful coverage of the German pre-war economy in "Wages of Destruction" to remark that Germany's had acquired a reputation for mastering dark magical arts) just to keep Germany afloat.

Still, things were getting really desperate until the Austrian foreign currency reserves were seized, which gave the Germans a bit more breathing room that was enough to last until '39; when wartime made the whole currency issue moot.

I don't really expect Paradox to model these foreign currency shenanigans though - it's a pretty obscure topic that doesn't really resonate with the pop-history crowd - but close examination of such issues actually helps explain why certain things happened really historically. For Germany to not need to annex Austria, Hitler basically had to reverse course much earlier and not insist on pegging the Reichmark to the gold standard.
 
Its not that they mistook north and south. In the north, Soviets had accurately predicted where the blow would land, and massed AT at the right place. In the south, Germans avoided the biggest concentration of AT, and were able to go through all of fixed defences - hence the counterattack by 5th Guard Tank army.
 
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