Historical and Useful Super Battleships

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unmerged(430195)

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Jan 1, 2012
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  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
I've been playing HoI3 a bit obsessively recently, and thought I might as well make some suggestions as to what I think could be improved. The first of these is something that bugged me from the beginning: Super Battleships are nigh useless. Essentially the only reason to build them is if you want a few BBs but don't want to invest in the numerous techs per cycle, and by the late 30s/early 40s they are essentially useless compared to "modern" BBs. However, this seems rather at odds with reality and history. Note that I will talk to about the unbuilt, but planned, ships as if they performed relatively close to their design specifications.

First of all, there is the issue that some ships are listed as BBs, when they weren't. The prime example being the Yamato, the first and essentially only SHBB ever built. When in reality it was a late 30s/early 40s era SHBB that outgunned and out-armored many of its contemporaries. It was literally in a class of its own amongst BBs (hence why its distinguished from "normal" BBs by being called a SHBB). But this is relatively minor, what bothers me more is how the SHs are portrayed.

The really big problem that I have with SHBBs in HoI3 is that they are portrayed as slow, relatively powerful early-war ships that didn't change very much as time went on, which isn't very accurate. The first SHBBs, although they weren't built, were Post-WWI era super dreadnoughts: the Tillman (Or "Maximum") Class Battleships proposed during the 20s. Then (~WWII) we had early-war designs like the Yamato and the Sovetski Soyuz. Mid-war designs like the Super Yamato (A-150) and some of the H-classes. And we even had late war SHBBs like the Monatana and the more Gargatuan H-class variants. That's nearly 30 years of history there!

In terms of speed, many of these weren't all that slow, they were about as fast as contemporary BBs like the King George V class, and some would have been fast enough to classify as Fast Battleships (such as the H-44). It's especially odd that you can only upgrade the guns on these ships and not the armor as perhaps the most important part of SHBBs were the far thicker armor they sported compared to their opponents (in fact, the Monatana design crew purposely chose to make a slower, better armored and armed ship instead of a weaker ship that was about as fast as the Iowas).
 
They were nigh useless and four carriers instead of Hotel Yamato and Musashi would have made strategic difference.

It´s still a big ship with guns that can´t hit planes and will be hit by them. VERY easily, due to size. Those ships could make difference in Jutland, not 1943.
 
The real problem, in my opinion, is not that they should be more useful than they are. It is that some powers, at the time, thought they would be useful and we with our historical perspective know better. This is what makes them difficult to portray properly in game.

I sometimes wonder if it might not be a more interesting game if we were forced to do the best we could with some whimsical and arbitrary AI making our research and production decisions for us. We as the high command could put in a request to get a more effective medium tank, but the politicians might decide that it was more in our interest to develop V1 rockets instead.
 
it's too bad they wasn't any kind of reliable SAM tech until the 60s. the battleship might not have faded into obsolescence so fast if you could just replace a few AA guns with SAM launchers.
 
They should be more usefull, yes.
I hope you can spend naval exp to improve them in differen't ways such as aa and fire control they should improve like any other ship.
All ships should have a chance of ambush, a BB could literary one-hit a carrier if they got in range.
While it never really happend if just one modern BB got in range of a group of carriers and knew their position its very likley they would be sunk.
BBs should also have the ability to dramasticly improve their aa, they should also be very hard to sink.
They should also be around as fast as carriers, espacially if you focus on fast BBs
Their greatest disadvantage over carriers was range but they did have advantages to espacially during bad weather, if you only focus on carriers and weak screens you should be punished if your fleet get in a situation like bad weather BB, BC ambush.

It would be intressting if the game allows you to spend exp to create designs that was never used like a aa only BB class of ship and things like that may fill some nich roles or be completly useless but it would make the game more intressting in some ways.
 
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They should be more usefull, yes.
I hope you can spend naval exp to improve them in differen't ways such as aa and fire control they should improve like any other ship.
All ships should have a chance of ambush, a BB could literary one-hit a carrier if they got in range.
While it never really happend if just one modern BB got in range of a group of carriers and knew their position its very likley they would be sunk.
BBs should also have the ability to dramasticly improve their aa, they should also be very hard to sink.
They should also be around as fast as carriers, espacially if you focus on fast BBs
Their greatest disadvantage over carriers was range but they did have advantages to espacially during bad weather, if you only focus on carriers and weak screens you should be punished if your fleet get in a situation like bad weather BB, BC ambush.

It would be intressting if the game allows you to spend exp to create designs that was never used like a aa only BB class of ship and things like that may fill some nich roles or be completly useless but it would make the game more intressting in some ways.

Not that I agree with most of your points, but your comment on creating other classes just reminded me of a ship class that does not get represented in HOI.

The Americans (and perhaps some others) had a class of heavy cruiser whose armament consisted mainly of an excessive amount of AA. Considering the primacy of carriers during the period I am a bit surprised that the game has never really allowed for the AA cruisers.
 
The real problem, in my opinion, is not that they should be more useful than they are. It is that some powers, at the time, thought they would be useful and we with our historical perspective know better. This is what makes them difficult to portray properly in game.

I sometimes wonder if it might not be a more interesting game if we were forced to do the best we could with some whimsical and arbitrary AI making our research and production decisions for us. We as the high command could put in a request to get a more effective medium tank, but the politicians might decide that it was more in our interest to develop V1 rockets instead.

Maybe there should be an experience point reward for investing in the white elephants.
 
They were nigh useless and four carriers instead of Hotel Yamato and Musashi would have made strategic difference.

It´s still a big ship with guns that can´t hit planes and will be hit by them. VERY easily, due to size. Those ships could make difference in Jutland, not 1943.

Which is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the point being made. The exact same thing could have been said of any other battleship, such as the Iowa classes, the George the V, the Bismarcks, and so on. The point being made is NOT that they should be the king of the seas, the point being made is that they are represented in a historically unrealistic manner, especially when compared to their smaller cousins (the BBs) that they were, in most cases, outright better than because they had more firepower, more armor, and essentially the same speed.

The real problem, in my opinion, is not that they should be more useful than they are. It is that some powers, at the time, thought they would be useful and we with our historical perspective know better. This is what makes them difficult to portray properly in game.

I think you misunderstood my point, I don't want to make them "more useful." The point I was making was that relative to battleships, SHBBs should be objectively better ships. Yet by mid-war, BBs somehow out-tech SHBBs and are better than them in most regards. Which just isn't right. Ultimately at a strategic levels, SHBBs AND BBs are bad options, but if you are going for a SAG (which are strategically inferior to CTFs), SHBBs should be the way to go. In short, SHBBs should be to BBs what BCs are to HCs.

I sometimes wonder if it might not be a more interesting game if we were forced to do the best we could with some whimsical and arbitrary AI making our research and production decisions for us. We as the high command could put in a request to get a more effective medium tank, but the politicians might decide that it was more in our interest to develop V1 rockets instead.

This actually sounds like a wicked fun alternate game mode. And it shouldn't be all that hard to make too. Although I doubt the devs would involve too much time in it. It might end up as a mod though.

it's too bad they wasn't any kind of reliable SAM tech until the 60s. the battleship might not have faded into obsolescence so fast if you could just replace a few AA guns with SAM launchers.

I doubt it would have changed all that much.
 
I do see your point now that you are saying that the SHBB should stack up better against BBs. You are not making the same tired old argument about BB vs CV.

Now I agree with you.
 
Well, there are a few issues with SHBBs in HOI3 that make them kind of an oddball.

The first is what, exactly, counts as a SHBB? Everyone trots out Yamato, but the Montanas planned for the US are same size and faster, the Sovetsky Soyuz would have been the same size as Yamato.

What about hypothetical ships? The H-44 German proposal had a listed weight twice Yamato. The A-150 would have been only slightly larger than Yamato, but would boast 20 inch guns.

In fact, pre-1939 trends in battleship design clearly favored going big for most countries. So, in that sense, you could make a case that if the naval treaties didn't exist, all battleships would have ended up being SHBBs.

Then there's the whole tech issue in HOI3. While some people hate that you can't make better SHBBs, the way the techs are set up are logical within the context of game mechanics. You can research SHBB, get a fancy battleship earlier an in time for the war (Japan starts with it in 36). If you want to continue making better BBs, knock yourself out and keep researching BB techs. 1940 BBs almost catch SHBBs, while 1942 BBs are clearly superior. It seems weird, but the tech set up ensures that tech rushing a decent BB in time for the war in 39 is possible, while making the bigger, badder ships no one completed is also possible.

Personally, I'd like to see a set up where BB techs are reworked so that Yamato, Montana, and Sovetsky Soyuz are kind of the target models for BB development past 1938, but that earlier BB models aren't just 1920 tech ships on a linear scale with the later models. I'd like the early tech ships made inferior in significant ways related to treaty limitations.

Since tanks and planes have models, I expect ships to have them as well. There probably won't be a difference between SHBB and BB this time, since you can just have different models. And you can have earlier models be crappy treaty ships. But who knows?
 
Maybe we should only have few classes of ship, Carriers, Capitals, Screens, Submarines, Transports.

With these classes you can design your ship, give it a name and class type like BB or SHBB.
 
Maybe we should only have few classes of ship, Carriers, Capitals, Screens, Submarines, Transports.

With these classes you can design your ship, give it a name and class type like BB or SHBB.

yeah. EvW had something approaching that but with HOI 4, i'll believe it when I see a naval designer dev diary.

as far as class type, there'd have to be tonnage involved since that's sort of the orthodox means for determining type.
 
Yea it would need tonage, it could work like division designer, but instead it would be a ship instead of a division and you have to pick things like main guns, aa, armor and such.

In screens you maybe also could pick how many ship it got and even design the ship to.
 
Well, there are a few issues with SHBBs in HOI3 that make them kind of an oddball.

The first is what, exactly, counts as a SHBB? Everyone trots out Yamato, but the Montanas planned for the US are same size and faster, the Sovetsky Soyuz would have been the same size as Yamato.

What about hypothetical ships? The H-44 German proposal had a listed weight twice Yamato. The A-150 would have been only slightly larger than Yamato, but would boast 20 inch guns.

In fact, pre-1939 trends in battleship design clearly favored going big for most countries. So, in that sense, you could make a case that if the naval treaties didn't exist, all battleships would have ended up being SHBBs.

Then there's the whole tech issue in HOI3. While some people hate that you can't make better SHBBs, the way the techs are set up are logical within the context of game mechanics. You can research SHBB, get a fancy battleship earlier an in time for the war (Japan starts with it in 36). If you want to continue making better BBs, knock yourself out and keep researching BB techs. 1940 BBs almost catch SHBBs, while 1942 BBs are clearly superior. It seems weird, but the tech set up ensures that tech rushing a decent BB in time for the war in 39 is possible, while making the bigger, badder ships no one completed is also possible.

Personally, I'd like to see a set up where BB techs are reworked so that Yamato, Montana, and Sovetsky Soyuz are kind of the target models for BB development past 1938, but that earlier BB models aren't just 1920 tech ships on a linear scale with the later models. I'd like the early tech ships made inferior in significant ways related to treaty limitations.

Since tanks and planes have models, I expect ships to have them as well. There probably won't be a difference between SHBB and BB this time, since you can just have different models. And you can have earlier models be crappy treaty ships. But who knows?

Ha ha, gotta love even vague spoiler hints. Models of ships, that sounds intriguing. I wonder if this opens the door to the American AA cruisers.

Maybe we should only have few classes of ship, Carriers, Capitals, Screens, Submarines, Transports.

With these classes you can design your ship, give it a name and class type like BB or SHBB.

For the most part I could support such a change, though I think many of us, myself included, would really like to see there be some distinguishment between ships capable of conducting amphibious operations vs those only suited to transport troops between friendly ports.
 
Don't carriers start at their max range even then they are ambushed?, if this is the case that have to be changed.

I hope that is not true, especially if the encouter happens at night. That would defeat the whole purpose.

If carriers ALWAYS got to start the engagement at max range we could simplify the game down to two classes, carriers and carrier targets.
 
Maybe we should only have few classes of ship, Carriers, Capitals, Screens, Submarines, Transports.

With these classes you can design your ship, give it a name and class type like BB or SHBB.

Terrible idea imo. I think the HoI 3 naval system had the general idea right. If it were up to me and this was an ideal world, I'd use the same base system as HoI 3 with ships and fleets represented as individual units on the map with capital ships having 'critical' systems that could be damaged in battle and affect the ship (All well explained via tooltip markers on the ship info panel). I'd also have the AI capable of understanding when it has an inferior navy (Tie in to trait of the minister for the navy?) to understand that fact and stop sending out it's entire fleet which then gets absolutely annihilated. Something like what Germany did in WW2 would be nice where they rarely but their fleet to sea and kept it on the move so the RAF/RN couldn't bomb them in port (It worked for a while). Maybe patrols (DD, torpedo boats.etc) and submarines could be abstracted but capital ships should remain individual and unique units.

Back to the topic, I'd hate for SHBB's to be neglected like in HoI 3. If I want to go on insane schemes and plans and build a surface fleet centred around big, lumbering behemoths then I should be able to. Common sense and hindsight tells me not to, but the feeling of 'launching' a super heavy battleship and setting it as pride of the fleet is unique to me. Call me mad but I like using BB's and SHBB's, however only when using a mod that adds upgradable components to the SHBB.
 
I hope that is not true, especially if the encouter happens at night. That would defeat the whole purpose.

If carriers ALWAYS got to start the engagement at max range we could simplify the game down to two classes, carriers and carrier targets.

I forgot to say, but in HOI3 I think they do which is ridiculous, ambush was the most dangerous thing that could for them because they did not have the armor of other ships, airplanes take time to get into air and they was costly to, many of ww2 carrier losses was to submarines, which will never happen if carriers just start far away from ambushing subs.
While no carrier was sunk by BB it don't mean it could not happen, crazy things can happen in wars.
 
I do see your point now that you are saying that the SHBB should stack up better against BBs. You are not making the same tired old argument about BB vs CV.

Now I agree with you.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't think anyone even halfway versed in history would suggest that BBs should ever match CVs, lol.

Well, there are a few issues with SHBBs in HOI3 that make them kind of an oddball.

The first is what, exactly, counts as a SHBB? Everyone trots out Yamato, but the Montanas planned for the US are same size and faster, the Sovetsky Soyuz would have been the same size as Yamato.

Why can't we just do it the way this is often done: by tonnage and purpose. For example, the modern definition of super carrier is dependent upon tonnage. Thus, for example, any ship above 60k or 70k tons would be a SHBB. The reason why we SHOULD differentiate between SHBBs and normal BBs is because many of these nations were fielding them (or planning to field them) along side their conventional BBs. That is also the same reason can't say: anything post 194x year now counts as a SHBB. They were designed alongside modern BBs to serve as upscaled force multipliers, and thus fit into a category of their own.

The best thing is that this general fits for almost ANY SHBB that was historically being imagined. Even the Tillman classes designed in the 20s, long before most nations started planning their own SHBBs, would fit under this definition.

What about hypothetical ships? The H-44 German proposal had a listed weight twice Yamato. The A-150 would have been only slightly larger than Yamato, but would boast 20 inch guns.

I don't see the problem. Weight is not an issue since we are only classing above a certain weight (as we do with SCVs). Furthermore, for things like guns we can just use tech levels, which WOULD accurately reflect what they were capable of at the time.

In fact, pre-1939 trends in battleship design clearly favored going big for most countries. So, in that sense, you could make a case that if the naval treaties didn't exist, all battleships would have ended up being SHBBs.

The same way that if the Treaty of Versailles hadn't existed Germany probably would have built up a substantially larger conventional surface fleet with BBs and CVs more comparable to the German Empire's Dreadnought Fleet that was challenged in size and power only by the RN? Treaties matter and affect how history unfold. They also affected ship building significantly.

Then there's the whole tech issue in HOI3. While some people hate that you can't make better SHBBs, the way the techs are set up are logical within the context of game mechanics. You can research SHBB, get a fancy battleship earlier an in time for the war (Japan starts with it in 36). If you want to continue making better BBs, knock yourself out and keep researching BB techs. 1940 BBs almost catch SHBBs, while 1942 BBs are clearly superior. It seems weird, but the tech set up ensures that tech rushing a decent BB in time for the war in 39 is possible, while making the bigger, badder ships no one completed is also possible.

Except they aren't logical. It is completely illogical that one kind of ship magically can't increase the amount of armor or its engines - only its guns. Especially when every other ship in the game can. Besides, why should we allow this "tech skipping"? We don't allow anyone to build OP tanks or infantry that get made obsolete over time. SHBBs were only better than BBs in the first place because they were bigger, leaving space for more engines, more guns, and more armor. That we magically can't improve upon them by applying new techs and new designs that improve efficiency and add even more is absurd. In that sense it both spits in the face of balance and in the face of historicity.

Personally, I'd like to see a set up where BB techs are reworked so that Yamato, Montana, and Sovetsky Soyuz are kind of the target models for BB development past 1938, but that earlier BB models aren't just 1920 tech ships on a linear scale with the later models. I'd like the early tech ships made inferior in significant ways related to treaty limitations.

Since tanks and planes have models, I expect ships to have them as well. There probably won't be a difference between SHBB and BB this time, since you can just have different models. And you can have earlier models be crappy treaty ships. But who knows?[/QUOTE]

The problem is that in many cases SHBB weren't just "different" models. Think about it this way: there's a reason the US built Iowas instead of modernized Tillmans.

Maybe we should only have few classes of ship, Carriers, Capitals, Screens, Submarines, Transports.

With these classes you can design your ship, give it a name and class type like BB or SHBB.

That wouldn't work, because that's as problematic as saying there should only be: Bombers and Fighters for planes. These aren't minor differences, these are differences as big as those between CAS and Interceptor craft. Different planes had different uses, just like different ships had substantially different uses. In the case of Capitals, BBs were meant for front line engagement, whereas BCs were meant for convoy warfare and hit-and-run tactics (kreuzerkrieg). You literally fought completely differently with them. HCs were meant to supplement the power of whatever caps they were with, acting as force multipliers and to help with screens. Screens worked differently as well, with light cruisers being meant to be screens with gun power, whereas destroyers were torpedo boats with ASW uses. Etc, etc.

What I typed up above is oversimplified, but I think it gets the point across well enough: different kinds of ships fought very differently, so you can't just group together groups of ships uses completely differently together.
 
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