Count to Duke: Now What?

Anthropoid · May 4, 2014

It has been quite a while since I played this game, but have been enjoying it again lately. I enjoy playing a French Count and rising up to Duke status, something I have accomplished once or twice before. However, I always either get distracted from this game or lose interest.

In my latest playthrough, using an older version of reality kings (3.5 I think it is), I began in 1066 as Hugue de Semur, Count of Chalon and Charolais. This is not the most difficult Count to start with in France but it is fairly tough going. As of my second monarch, I had rise to the status of Duke of Burgundy, and controlled all five counties in that de jure Duchy (plus Chalons itself, which de jure is part of Upper Burgundy).

As of ~1175 I am up to my third monarch, "Robespierre de Semur" and I have spent about 8 or 10 years of his reign, simply solidifying his demesne: getting all counties capital castles to 6.5 fortification; building up to Castle City (or at least town); building a Squire list, training ground and the other one that buffs all troop types. I haven't looked at my army level in the ledger recently, but I'm confident I can take on any Duchy of my size or even larger. I generally try to never go below 200 florins and gain about 13 per month at this point. I have elective succession and my vote seems to be the only one that counts as I control all the counties. I am an independent realm which I didn't choose to do, but seems to have happened simply because I took my former Duke liege's last county then "created" the Duchy of Burgundy for ~50 florins, which then made me an independent Duke. Most of my council have skills in the low to mid 20s. I've spent a good deal of time 'poaching' every county and duchy in the region for all claimants, which I find brings a lot of talent into your court.

My paradox at this point is: I'm surrounded by big scary Kingdoms/Empires. To my west: France. Not uber France (Bretony is still separate and Aquitaine seems to have been gobbled up by HRE)

To my east: HRE.

For a couple of years, a Duchy with one or two counties (Forez, Burgundy, etc.) came into being as an independent realm, but before I could get claims they got gobbled back into HRE.

I have never actually played this far (two rulers past gaining the Duchy status) and I'm pretty psyched at how well this play has gone. Would love to play it out fully maybe even convert it for EU4.

However, I'm not totally certain what a wise course of action would be at this stage. In a previous aborted playthrough from roughly the same start (maybe Auxerre + Never) I got a bit cheeky after getting to Duke and took on France. Beat a couple of stacks of ~1000 ish troops and felt smug and started besieging a county. After a few months here came a stack of 8000 or so and I got curb stomped and decided to abandon that game and restart.

What do you guys suggest?

Should I expect an eventual attack by France to resorb me into Kingdom of France? Am I wise to just bide my time, build up my demesne as strong as I can get it and wait for an attack?

One other slightly different question: apart from buffing my county castles is it worth it to build additional baronies or cities or bisophrics?

LumberKing · May 4, 2014

Go insanity wolf and launch a simultaneous Papal-sanctioned invasion against the two.

Rotkohl · May 4, 2014

Take Brittany. It is only duchy-sized, not that far away and you can probably take it. It is unlikely to be absorbed into france before you can get claims, too.
Once you have Brittany, you can form the Kingdom of Brittany, and from then on, there's multiple things to do.
Something that is a good idea as King of Brittany is to invade Ireland, or maybe Wales, if it is still independant. Eat away at little states along the coastline, since (if I remember correctly) Brittany's counties are all at sea, they have quite a lot of boats, which makes this tactic viable.
If you are powerful enough, you can try to finally take on france. For extra style points, try to eat at the HRE when there are revolts, form the Kingdom of Burgundy and make it your primary title, therefore ruling over Burgundy (K) from Burgundy (D).

Personally, I wouldn't be too scared of the HRE, it is France you should probably fear. I'm actually surprised they didn't try to get Burgundy back yet. Waiting too long before you conquer others may very well result in your destruction. Offence is the best defence, in this case.

I would wait before I built additional holdings in my counties. I feel it isn't worth it when compared to conquering other lands and hiring mercenaries, at least at such an early stage in the game.

Have fun!

tfjs · May 4, 2014

You could rejoin France or possibly the HRE and rise up as the most powerful faction leader, enforcing low crown authority to pick off other counties you have claims to. This could be a temporary measure until you feel rich and powerful enough to exploit or create a diversion in the kd /empire enabling a easier exit campaign, or become king of france and get eaten up by the HRE!

Simplethunder · May 4, 2014

It's a mistake to be independent when you're surrounded by giants. If you were still a vassal of the king of France, you could fairly easily get a claim on another French duchy and expand your power that way, without having to take on powerful kings or being threatened by one. Swearing fealty is pretty much always a possibility, and since you are a very powerful duke (owning all territories and having upgraded your holdings) you'll have quite a bit of power in whichever realm you swear fealty to. I'd take note of the CA in your neighbouring realms, though. If you join a realm that has high CA, you'll be wasting a lot of time trying to get CA down so you can wage wars again.

whosthebestcop · May 4, 2014

It's easier like others said to eat away at France as a French vassal. If you wanted to get a papal invasion of France since they have a larger realm you would probably still need more holdings in your realm.

If you want the second option I would try to eat away at the Muslims. See if any small Muslim county is close enough for a holy war. Or go for Italy. Southern Italy has a chance to be fragmented or have Muslims there depending on your particular game. The duchy of Sicily is one of the best in the game.

Depending wants going on in Spain you might be able to attack the Muslims or small duchies. You can ask the pope for duchy claims if you have SoA DLC.

Anthropoid · May 4, 2014

Ah thanks guys. I'm wondering how hard it would be to butter up HRE into helping me actually take France down a peg or two. That is more the direction I'm leaning.

Don't know why but I dislike having holdings that are remote from my main demesne; too many years of playing Civ I guess. Certainly some wars against Muslim lords would seem to be wise!

yezhanquan · May 4, 2014

I'll recommend going under France and taking it over. If you want to avoid fights with the HRE, just let de jure HRE lands go independent.

WankoStankins · May 5, 2014

The HRE starts out elective at least, the first thing you should've done when you became independent was swear fealty to them and to get elected emperor.

Anthropoid · May 5, 2014

That is an interesting idea.

Update: it is up around 1180. I bidded time for many decades building up my demesne (independent still) and managed to get one claim on Duchy of Dauphine (which was part of HRE).

Eventually there was a situation with France, and about 4 of HRE's vassals all at war with HRE so I went for it and managed to usurp Duchy of Dauphine.

I now can "Press claims" on Vienne and one other entity. When I click the symbol for this at top middle of screen it takes me to the rival lord(s) but I don't see anything special in the diplo window. I suppose I need to be in the same realm (HRE) as them to press the claims? If so, swearing fealty to the HRE would seem to be a timely thing to do now? Esp. given the prospect of working on getting elected Emperor.

Oh yeah, another question: wars against Muslims, crusades and the like . . . Emir (I think) of Valencia is pretty huge. France had taken several counties in Iberia but Valencia has gained them back. Closest one is Rousillon (called Rosello in this game I think). If I want to get some fighting against infidels going, do I need to stake a claim on one of their provinces (e.g., Rosello) or can I just declare a holy war, or do I need to get the Pope to call a Holy War?

Oh yeah, one last thing: not that I'd think it was a good idea, but I just noticed I could swear fealty to the Pope. What would the pros/cons of that be?

My current character (still third monarch in campaign) is mid-sixties. I think my next track will be: get a claim on Rosello; consider swearing fealty to HRE (though will wait to see what you guys say on that); try to save up cash for my heir.

If I'm a vassal of HRE can I still war dec French counts or Muslim lords?

Rotkohl · May 5, 2014

I see you chose to disregard my advice - that's fine. Still, you'll find out sooner or later that as a small realm, building up your demesne ist mostly a waste of money you could spend on mercenaries.

As to your questions - As an independant realm, you should be able to press your claims against anyone. You wouldn't have to be part of the HRE to do so.
If there currently is no war going on, you'd have to fight the Emperor for your claims, though, so the option to declare war should be on the diplomacy screen of the Emperor.
Of course, if you are part of the HRE, you could press your claims on the title holders directly, so that's not that bad of an advice. Still, being elected Emperor might prove more difficult than many people on this forums tend to imply, from my experience. I wouldn't do it, but work on claims on Brittany instead, as I said, but that's a matter of taste - to me, being a smaller, independant realm tends to be more fun than to lead the big grey blob.

Concerning fighting against Muslims - That depends. If their territory is near enough to yours, you would be able to directy declare a holy war for one of their duchies. As you are the Duke of Burgundy and Dauphine, that's probably not the case. The Pope could (every 30 years, I think) declare a Crusade on a kingdom held by an infidel, but that is mostly random and I suppose you're not influential or well-liked enough to get him to declare a crusade on your favourite target.

So at the moment, you'd have to fabricate a claim on one of their counties normally, and then you can declare holy wars to your heart's content, as long as there is Muslims left on your borders. Do you have access to holy orders or have they all be vassalized? If you do, you might actually manage to win the initial war and gain quite a lot of territory.

Drake_Hound · May 5, 2014

If you want to play it that way , there is only really one way to play it .

First county you get instead of putting down vassals (aside from the bishop and town , if legit ) strip the titles back to you , then simply upgrade and build baronies , forget about the town and bishop cause you need them for money .
So let them upgrade it themself , if you are swimming in gold , then just use the town and bishop .
Even if it says wrong holding as a expensive extra troops barracks .

Vassals provide so little levy lately , even fully upgraded 1000 opnion in the green .
That it is just beter to own the place if you need troops ! And upgrade it .
Starting location is very important , if you want slow but steady growth .
starting location should have atleast 5 area , best is 6-7 (but those are major famous places ) .
But in the end you can roughly get around 10-20k troops out of one fully controlled area , with tech level 2-3 upgrade .
If you give AI control , then while gold income goes up , the troops is reduced to a measy 3-5 k max . (that is if you control the capital county, that provides roughly 70% of the levy raised there)

So if you understand the mechanics to get to duchy , then 8k troops shouldn't be a problem .
Once you understand how one fully controlled county can raise more troops , then 4 vassalised county .

Anthropoid · May 5, 2014

Ah cool guys.

@ Rotkohl: Its not so much that I "disregarded" your advice, as . . . I just sort of went with the flow

and stayed Independent. I kinda like the idea of staying Independent now and never swearing fealty again. I dunno, just a thing to try to do. I figure if I plan to export this to EU4, I don't need to power-gamer it and try conquer everything in sight or even necessarily "optimize." But within the overall constraint of trying to stay independent, getting as much bang for my buck as possible seems cool.

So guess I'm taking a kind of long-term view and seems that upgrading the demesne isn't so bad from that perspective.

Up to about 1190 now. Took Sens from Duchy of Champagne during a period when several of the French Dukes were briefly independent. Now they are all resorbed to France. Unfortunately I'm having some public relations issues at present cause that annoying Duke of Champagne went and got me excommunicated. Dang. Guess I need to do some crusading.

@ Drake_Hound: So you are saying? "Build additional castles in each county to buff my troop count" ??

Actually that does sound intriguing.

The one thing I don't like about this game: the 'fun' parts sort of come in waves, and there are substantial periods where just flipping it to max time dilation and dozing off seem to be the best option. It is too bad there are not some good 'mini-games' or something to play while in time dilation.

Rotkohl · May 5, 2014

Ah, nobody is trying to tell you your playstyle is wrong, if you like to build castles and upgrade your demesne, that's great! Sorry if I seemed condescending, that wasn't my intention. Also, staying independent was my suggestion as well

Drake_Hound is right, if you are hellbent on this admittedly suboptimal playstyle, building castles is a good idea. Do you have access to retinues, e.g. did you buy the LoR Dlc?

Most people would probably agree with your criticism. There's been the idea of a dlc containing more events and decisions floating around the forums for quite some time now, and I'd definitely buy that if it was ever made.

tfjs · May 5, 2014

there is a lot of debate over the merits of filling holdings with castles, churchs/temples or cities - I'd check them out. in summary castles give more troops, cities more gold, and churchs, piety and with free investure easily controlled vassals. there are various merits for different strategies, I tend to only build cities. As if I ever need that many troops I'd just hire some mercs for a short time. For troops don't forget retinue, although some people think they are OP.
If you are planning a conversion to EUIV it might be that the end economical value of the counties can be significant so look this up too.
If you are gonna stay indep I'd look to form a kd - in your case Burgandy. There'd be more things to play with like crown laws and more managing of vassals, but this may also depend on what sort of conversion to EUIV you want like what sort of national ideas group you could have as burgancy vrs an indept duchey

Anthropoid · May 5, 2014

Ah thanks guys. I don't have many of the DLCs. Will be setting up a new system soon and I'll see about upgrading everything then.

Drake_Hound · May 5, 2014

well ignoring wrong holdings , (thus getting a penalty in piety /gold ) , the churches and city can raise more levy troops.
then castle , what castle are really important for are retinue .

So example a bishop levy shows 1,8k troops , but you will never ever get that 1,8k levy, even on max laws .
When you directly control it (with holy war or anything else ) it isn't even 1,8k levy . It is around 3k levy .
Cities with CA on max , levy on max , directly controlled provide you even more levy then baronies .
also directly controlled with max tax , provide you much more money then a happy vassal holding .

But in the longterm once you gotten the retinue , you can lose the levy troops , and concentrate on retinue .
usually I tax feudal into space !

cause I control all the baronies castle . So I tax meself into space

The money goes to me ,

Drake_Hound · May 5, 2014

But before you say ok I control all is the best solution for troops , sadly the penalty of wrong holding .
Aside from gold , also applies into much slower levy buildup !
so if you have taken a serious blow in losses , those cities and baronies .
Will build up troops much slower then ever .

But since you are desperate for troops when fights goes the wrong way . In your capital it is beter to have the bishop and city under your direct control .
You can also play a feudal strategy of divide and conquer with building a castle in each county . That is under your control (something AI definetly is counter acting if he has gold ! ) so some pesky count trouble some .
He will definetly want to rebel with a barony castle under your direct control .
Infact I manipulate the system of extra castle to keep everything in line

Anthropoid · May 5, 2014

Few questions:

1. Unless you own a city yourself, there isn't really anyway to control those lines of inheritance, eh?

2. The Penalty for the Liege of a realm being directly in control of a city or temple does not apply to the liege being in direct control of additional castles in a county, right?

3. This "wrong holding type" penalty, you are saying it is not just as bad as lower taxes, but that the troops will 'regenerate' slower?

Drake_Hound said:
But before you say ok I control all is the best solution for troops , sadly the penalty of wrong holding .
Aside from gold , also applies into much slower levy buildup !
so if you have taken a serious blow in losses , those cities and baronies .
Will build up troops much slower then ever .

But since you are desperate for troops when fights goes the wrong way . In your capital it is beter to have the bishop and city under your direct control .

4. Additional castles in a county seem like an excellent way to keep all sons "landed' and as long as the main heir is their liege by virtue of inheriting the overall county (or ideally the entire top-level of administration of the whole realm, which is why I'm loving elective) they will not go independent nor will they muck with elective inheritance?

Drake_Hound said:
You can also play a feudal strategy of divide and conquer with building a castle in each county . That is under your control (something AI definetly is counter acting if he has gold ! ) so some pesky count trouble some .
He will definetly want to rebel with a barony castle under your direct control .
Infact I manipulate the system of extra castle to keep everything in line

I don't quite follow you here. Obviously, if you have gained suzerainty over a county you control the "capital" which is generally a castle. Are you saying, you build a second castle that your character directly controls as a way to keep vassals from revolting?

I'm leaning toward building additional castles, some to give to 2nd or 3rd sons so they are landed, some to keep myself to increase my levy size.

Which DLC has the retinues?

Drake_Hound · May 6, 2014

No you can't control those in line in bishop and city , that is why holywar infact is overpowered in that perspectief .

That you start with a clean slate , all buildings to you . While at start you have to wait for low crown authority .
To revoke the city and bishop in your capital , at cost of malus opnion .
In the longterm it is worth it in the capital . Cause gold can come from other sources and and area .
Troops cause of tech investment and buildings upgrade , usually your capital (that is if you choose the right area to start)
Provides a lot more , offcourse once you have a bigger realm , those raised vassals grow quickly .

One of the reason I do not like levy on the vassals , same reason AI doesn't do it unless in emergency or in the area where combat is most likely to happen .
Is how quick the opnion malus takes effect . .

2 no it only take part of your demesne , so one bishop is one 1 desmesne . Same for city .

3 yes the troops levy will generate at a much slower rate , to force players to give away that city or bishop .
they know city and bishop provides much more troops then castle , when all upgraded .
Sure the tax / income penalty usually persuade people to give them away .
But in your capital a difference of 70%+ more levy troops , isn't something to be snuffed at .
Infact controlling all of venice when upgraded to tech level 3 , the cities provided me more troops then my own castle .
the bishopric was like way ahead with , 3,5k troops .

4 , by holding a castle in each domain they get -20 opnion malus cause of desire , but when they revolt , you get globaly +10-25 opnion plus , so basically you are using those baronies to get so ahead of opnion positive , that running what kind of wierd governement type isn't a issue , don't give total control of a country , just manually give them the city and bishop , keep one barony castle for yourself in each county .

Infact I use that system to keep AI totally in check , they always plotting to get that barony back first .
Instead of whining for more stuff .

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