Waffen SS

Interesting Factoid:
Did you know that in all likelihood if Germany had won in Europe, the SS would have effectively replaced the normal army?

Hitler always trusted his pet Fanatics far more than the old generals of the army, who had an annoying habit of contradicting him (and being right)

Personally, the way I manifested this difference in HOI3 was to have Wehrmacht to be under indirect command through AI, and SS be under my direct control. Which conveys the spirit quite nicely, I dare say.

I said it before, and I'll say i again - new HOI needs to be streamlined, not further overcluttered. The game engine provides enough tools already to play out the peculiar features of the command structure.

SFSLovenought said:

Interesting Factoid:
Did you know that in all likelihood if Germany had won in Europe, the SS would have effectively replaced the normal army?

Hitler always trusted his pet Fanatics far more than the old generals of the army, who had an annoying tendency of contradicting him (and being right)

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The old men had to be replaced sooner or later anyway.
I would also like to see the Waffen SS being in the game and not just one motorized unit representing all of the divisions. But really it doesn't matter all that much as I am sure that big mods will have the Waffen SS.

Imaginary Star said:

Personally, the way I manifested this difference in HOI3 was to have Wehrmacht to be under indirect command through AI, and SS be under my direct control. Which conveys the spirit quite nicely, I dare say.

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That's a really, really, really good idea actually. I'm going to try that myself sometime.
Paradox should hire you as their Brilliant-Idea-Person (BIP)

Magyar1988 said:

The old men had to be replaced sooner or later anyway.
I would also like to see the Waffen SS being in the game and not just one motorized unit representing all of the divisions. But really it doesn't matter all that much as I am sure that big mods will have the Waffen SS.

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Replacing the old guard is good in most situations, except here- the old guard was the "JUNKER Officer Class" which was the military elite of Europe for the past 1000 years (Teutonic Order, Livonian Order, etc.. Officers in not only Germany but Austira, Holy Roman Empire, Scandinavia and
Russian empire even the French and English and Spanish had lot of Junker Officers), not heeding that collective experience is and proved suicidal.

I think giving us some units, as it is in present hoi 3, should be enough. No need to make two separated armed forces for Germany.

The scope of a Hearts of Iron game is not such that it's important to model the intricacies of the Waffen SS. They can be modeled well enough for our purposes just having them be units that receive priority in upgrades and reinforcements. Maybe they can be an elite unit as in HoI3 although I really don't know how much evidence there is that they were superior fighting formations to any other well cared for German division.

If Waffen SS are in the game (and not just as a special unit) then I want the Foreign Legion and the USMC to be included too!

I don't really see the need for a unique Waffen SS unit, they were not consistently better in quality than regular Heer units in the same way a Ghurka unit was over a regular British unit. Simply typing in a relevant division name and prioritising it for reinforcements and upgrades is sufficent.

+1

SFSLovenought said:

Interesting Factoid:
Did you know that in all likelihood if Germany had won in Europe, the SS would have effectively replaced the normal army?

Hitler always trusted his pet Fanatics far more than the old generals of the army, who had an annoying habit of contradicting him (and being right)

Click to expand...

Everyone have their own opinions about him, but even his enemies admit that David Irving knows about WW2 more than anyone else, and he said Wehrmacht officers did not only get to their rank thanks to Hitler, but they also got many of their victories thanks to him. He also says Marshal Zhukov admitted after the war how direct assault to Moscow is stupid (Wehmacht generals liked idea of direct asssault), and Hitler`s plans were better. And most historians read books to learn what happened in WW2, he instead looked at documents and talked to original sources, A.K.A people who lived at that time.
Oh, and claims that he denies holocaust or he is nazi are totally wrong.
Most Wehmacht commanders were conservatives who tough battles like France, Poland and any other succesful ones would have been impossible.

+1

Separete SS units if all types, not only motorized. And their counters need to be BLACK!!!

it may cause issues with being able to sell the game in Germany without making a separate version... or at least a bunch of legal problems that would have to be worked out. I'd bet against it being included (although I would like to see it as well).

Reichsmarshall said:

it may cause issues with being able to sell the game in Germany without making a separate version... or at least a bunch of legal problems that would have to be worked out. I'd bet against it being included (although I would like to see it as well).

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I don't think so seeing that TFH had a waffen as separate unit. Plus German law is laughable in that regard, why can't they just get over with it, it's a game not some propaganda product promoting Nazism.

juv95hrn said:

Separete SS units if all types, not only motorized. And their counters need to be BLACK!!!

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Some say that you can represent them in the game merely by changing the name of a regular unit to an SS unit. In fact, the common file for Germany responsible for naming divisions will give a few divisions historical SS names. So, there, you have it.

On the other hand, most mods, including mine, try to represent them. My mod starts with an emphasis on improving the Italy experience. So, everything starts with the cradel of fascism. The fascist (and Nazi) nations get a new unit called Fascist Militia. They are political fanatics. They have good suppression, but as the name implies, they fight crappy, like militia. These units represent the Italian Blackshirts, the MVSN or the CCNN, as well as the early SS units and some of the late war anti-partisan SS units. Although they start fighting like militia, they can be improved over all with a new tech called Fascist Militia Militarization. This tech starts importing traditional military training and techniques from the traditional military into the SS/CCNN. It makes your Fascist Militia fight much better than militia, but will not let them keep up with Infantry of the same tech level. However, after researching several levels of Fascist Militia Militarization, new units start to become available -- Loyalist Infantry, Motorized, Semi-Motorized, Mechanized, Mountain, Cavalry, Armor, Heavy Armor. These special units have the same stats as regular units, except morale and suppression are just a bit higher. All these units are in an enclosed separate upgrade system, meaning Fascist Militia can upgrade to Loyalist Infantry or Loyalist Mechanized, but cannot upgrade to regular Infantry or Mechanized, nor vis a versa. So, you get a real sense of two separate armed forces. Oh, they get cool black counters too.

I think this tracks real life pretty well. In both Germany and Italy, they start out as enthusiastic but amateur fanatics. In Germany they invest the leadership so that truly professional units become available, where as in Italy, where leadership and IC are an issue, most of the CCNN (excepting maybe the GGFF and Corazzata M) remained militia. Then in the late war, Germany gets desperate and produces SS militia to fight partisans as well as powerful SS panzer grenadiers divisions to hold off the Russians. I even added decisions to cause the German AI to build all of the historic SS divisions. So, in playing against Germany, you will run into all the infamous units on the battlefield.

Truth be told, it is wasteful for the player to pursue the ability to make SS. They are not better at combat than regular units. So, the leadership would be better used elsewhere. However, in my estimation, that models real life too.

So, that is my $0.02 on how to represent the SS in Hoi, but I do not expect PI to do something like this. The base game is kinda like a blank canvas for modders, and PI gives us the tools to represent the war as we deem appropriate. The special Waffen-SS unit was kinda ridiculous, but it gave us the tool to make a cool system. Special units limited to specific nationalities and limited in numbers, etc.

Battle plans are getting more attention so making a completely separate units just for making them under direct control - while it is known that all players will have such control over their units, despite increased importance of battle plans - makes little sense. You can do that yourself. In such light I doubt there will be any need of creating more diverse SS units while you can simply use regular ones. It does not only serve no purpose but can also create issues with such heavy emphasis on SS units. Needless.

juv95hrn said:

+1

Separete SS units if all types, not only motorized. And their counters need to be BLACK!!!

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+1
Separate SS units, they were not regular army, they were a separate and distinct entity, it hurts my eyes to see the (SS-Freiwilligen-Division Prinz Eugen, 2 SS-Panzer-Division) in my regular army division names, these need to be kept out, and you really cant keep the SS out of a WW2 game all together for historic reasons, so separate SS divisions/regiments are needed.

walgaam said:

[...] so separate SS divisions/regiments are needed.

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No, they aren't.

Best SS divisions like Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler and Nordland were best units in entire war. Regular SS were more fanatical than Wehrmacht, had higher training and had higher reguirements for soldiers, had their own aggressive doctorines and were prioritised for equipment- however, many of these units were more militia than standard units. SS was also meant to replace Wehrmacht, and were de facto separate army of their own, so they need their own units, and some kind of Facist Militia unit that represents weaker SS units and Italian CCNN/etc.
Since SS were fanatics, i think it would be great to tie number of them available to party`s popularity.