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stilgarpl

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Dec 16, 2010
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Well, for me it isn't, but I've been playing Paradox games since EU1 (14 years? Was it that long?). But, I gave a copy to my friend (I was hoping I will have someone to play multiplayer with), and he is now complaining how stupid and complicated this game is...

How do I quickly explain this game to someone who has never seen a Paradox title?
 
play sitting next to him if he lives close by.

That is how I taught my friend kinda working as an adviser sitting next to him giving him ideas and showing him the ropes and explaining mechanics without taking over the game.

he would ask "should I attack X"

I would reply "you could attack X but consider Y,Z etc"

It helps that you will be there to explain questions as they arise. It takes only one or two good sessions to have a person knowledgeable enough to play without help.
 
Well, for me it isn't, but I've been playing Paradox games since EU1 (14 years? Was it that long?). But, I gave a copy to my friend (I was hoping I will have someone to play multiplayer with), and he is now complaining how stupid and complicated this game is...

How do I quickly explain this game to someone who has never seen a Paradox title?

This all off the top of my head, so it won't have much of the elegance that others might have, still it is honest and of the heart of a fellow fan.

Paradox games, whilst still games, often walk a fine line with simulation due to the nature of their subjects. Like Dark Souls, this game also has a learning curve, in much the same way but with different mechanics. To really get an understanding of the game if you have to go through trial and error, learning as you go along.

Oh bugger it, what am I saying? Listen, some people will go on and become great kings of old. Most give up...good friend, pray that this man does not give up.
 
I'd call it a steep learning curve? It can be too hard, and it can be too easy, all based on player choices, but in general the game is complicated enough that picking it up is pretty challenging. The UI could definitely be a lot better, as things are hidden in weird places unless you know specifically where to look for them. Like finding out enemy troop strength, you click on the character, then on the little button in the upper-right hand corner, then hover over the top level liege to see total and current troop strength. Or clicking on your shield to get the economics of your realm. I didn't learn either of those tricks until at least a couple hundred hours into the game...
 
Has your friend played other grand strategy games, like Total War or Civ? Because if not, then the learning curve will be even steeper. It sounds from what little he's said that he just doesn't like it, but if he really wants to give it a go it's probably gonna take you sitting with him and explaining a few things before it'll become clearer...
 
Is this game too hard? Hell, i think it is damn easy... Too easy actually, blobbing as a 1 count minor is easy as damn.
 
Learning where everything is buried within the UI is definitely the biggest hurdle to learning the game.
Once you know your way around the nuances of the UI, the game's mechanics aren't all that complex.

I'd suggest they watch a good Let's Play - it's how I learnt.
 
Has your friend played other grand strategy games, like Total War or Civ? Because if not, then the learning curve will be even steeper. It sounds from what little he's said that he just doesn't like it, but if he really wants to give it a go it's probably gonna take you sitting with him and explaining a few things before it'll become clearer...
He played Civ 5 many times and he likes it, so he isn't a total strategy games virgin :)
play sitting next to him if he lives close by.
Sadly, he isn't. I can only instruct him while playing MP.


Is this game too hard? Hell, i think it is damn easy... Too easy actually, blobbing as a 1 count minor is easy as damn.

How much time did it took you before you were able to do that? :) I was Paradox veteran and my fist CK2 game was a disaster.
 
I think that the general consensus is that it takes about 10+ hours to understand what your doing and 100+ hours to be competent at what your doing, so just tell your friend to persevere and if he has any questions consult either you or any YouTube LP (Frankly there better than any tutorial paradox could make anyway)
 
Perhaps your friend is just horrible at the game. Like me. I'm so god awful at Paradox games that I have to cheat to at least a small extent every game otherwise either A) Nothing would happen B) I would lose quite quickly.

(The only EUIII game I played legit that I didn't die in was a Switzerland game where I left the HRE and then tried to be a neutral as hell.)
 
Too easy, needs more interesting (logical) mechanics to make it harder.

Better AI, more responsive vassal, better immersion, actual regents, jure uxoris, dual liege system, influence system etc etc.
 
go on skype, use share screen option and let him watch while you play. you can quickly show a few minutes of what you generally have to do, give him some tips, let him ask questions. and that should be it :p
 
Try getting him to play in Ireland in 1066, that is usually forgiving for small mistakes. No vassals, few outside threats for several decades, ability to get Primogeniture early, and few claimants running around. His biggest dangers are likely to be Scotland taking Ulster and mercenaries turing against him if he doesn't watch his money (tell him that he should aim for considerably more than the hiring cost when getting the mercs), as the Irish AI tends to be slow with fabricating and pressing claims (though watch out for the dukes). At the start, his chancellor should be fabricating claims, his marshal training troops (or suppressing rebels if he is about to imprison someone), his steward should collect money, his spymaster should scheme against factions and plots, and his chaplain should convert eventual heretics or butter up the Pope). Also have him watch some recent Let's Play videos, preferably after SoA, as there have been major changes since release.

If he has SI, tell him to keep it turned off if he is planning to play a long game, as handing hordes is not something that should be attempted as a new player. I would also suggest that he plays in regular mode rather than Ironman, as it is easy to make small mistakes that can ruin a game (not checking the type of marriage being offered, surrendering instead of enforcing demands, using the wrong CB, accidentally imprisoning the wrong guy and getting lots of tyranny).

After he has managed to form Ireland (make sure he does not keep all the duchies; I did that mistake when I started playing) and hold the throne past a couple of successions (which are likely the largest crisis he will face unless he gives someone powerful a claim; suggest that marrying his daughters to relatives of the King of Scotland is not a good idea), suggest that he tries something a bit harder. I learned most of the game as Robert of Apulia *way* back (before LoR and factions, when the Shia Jihad for Sicily/Fatimid Invasion of Sicily happened before the First Crusade if the RNG hated you), which can be easy unless the Byzantines come your way (it depends on how Manzikert goes and whether there is a civil war after or not), though you start with landed kinsmen who want your titles. HRE dukes are usually quite safe, but you will be stuck with Gavelkind or Elective for a long time (especially since you want the Kaiser to be weak enough that you still can declare internal war, if possible).

Matilda di Canossa can also work (matri-marry!), if you form Italy and get Primo before dying (or only have one son). Elective here is dangerous as there are a lot of strong voters, including the Pope and several doges. A tip is to form (but *not* join) the Independence and Lower CA factions and keep them from firing for as long as possible (the Kaiser can scheme you out if you are unlucky), as you want a reasonably strong HRE to deter the Italian republics and don't want the Kaiser getting any claims in Italy due to rebels. A Russian duke can also work, though you will not be able to expand a lot while the pagans still have attrition (which can come as a shock to new players, so warn him about this). Even so, you can form Rus within a few generations; especially with Seniority.

Aside from that, he probably needs to know about claims (how to get them and how they are inherited) and inheritance (who gets what under the many combinations he is likely to have to deal with), as well as the dangers of strong vassals or vassals with claims. I would suggest that he ignores buildings entirely until he knows the game well, as you can do reasonably well without them. He is better off saving for mercenaries (make sure that he saves money for successions). He should also avoid non-christian rulers and vassals of the Byzantine Empire due to different mechanics and free duchy revokations (as well as the Greek AI being in love with the "Blind" and "Castrate" buttons).

Also, send him to the wiki:
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/


Finally, tell him that it is a bad idea to start big. Anything with many vassals is going to be a problem, as factions will form quickly; and civil wars tend to be messy even if you know what you are doing. In EUIV, it probably is best to start as one of the larger nations to dissuade foreign threats, but in CKII you will not handle your vassals well without a lot of trial and error, which is hard to learn as one of the big players (as the child-king of France, you have a powerful William the Bastard/Conqueror, the duke of Flanders, and the superduke of Aquitaine ready to seek independence early, a claimant uncle holding a duchy, and the HRE wanting their de jure land from you; and that is not as hard as starting as the Byzantine Empire with the Seljuks, the Fatimids, lots of claimants, BitP, and factions all being issues from the start).

When playing together, try starting close and going for goals that both of you benefit from (becoming neighboring kings in the HRE, playing two of the Jimena brothers and conquering Hispania, playing Denmark and Sweden and supporting each other through the early instability before going for Dominium Maris Baltici once you can handle pagan attrition). Decide who gets what, and try to keep your vassals from taking his stuff through inheritance or outright conquest (you can probably deal with his vassals if they try to invade your lands). Occasionally check what his vassals are plotting, if you notice that he misses plots to fabricate claims on the kingdom or to kill his family, and keep some money saved to either hire mercenaries to help him or gift him if he needs money.
 
Nah it's not too hard, it just takes a while to learn. CK2 was my first Paradox game and I quit after a few hours due to the inadequacy of the tutorial which left me completely and utterly in the dark about almost every single aspect of the game. Literally all it taught me to do was how to raise levies... lol. Also the tutorial was bugged back then (probably still is) and you couldn't progress beyond a certain early part.

Anyway I kept feeling the urge to play a really deep strategy game. Age of Empires and Total War used to give me the fix for my strategy addiction but they just weren't doing it no more so I gave CK2 another try and forced myself to keep playing no matter how complicated or difficult it got. Eventually, after a few days, things started making sense.

It's as simple as that really. If you like strategy games and want a really deep strategy game to play, just spend a few days playing and asking questions on the forums or googling if you have any major problems you just can't figure out. Eventually it all comes together and you realize Paradox games are unique and amazing.