Lots of Holy Orders controlling crusader states

jordanjay29 · Mar 8, 2014

I'm noticing in my vanilla game that most of the crusades won are won by Holy Orders.

Jerusalem is held by the Knights of Caltrava
Andalucia is held by the Knights of Santiago
Lithuania is held by the Warriors of Penn (Slavic crusade for Lithuania)

Was this historical? Did Holy Orders hold and rule crusader states in the name of their order? It just seems quite strange to see the names of holy orders on the map like this, instead of a regular nation or a newly-created crusader state nation.

scelestus13 · Mar 8, 2014

Not really. The only thing I can think of is the Teutons in the Batlic states. But I can never think of something from a direct result of a crusade.

Closet Skeleton · Mar 8, 2014

Historically, there was only one successful land conquering crusade and it pre-dated all the orders, so they couldn't have won the crusade by default.

NewbieOne · Mar 8, 2014

Yes, the problem goes back to the fact that holy orders in this game appear ahistorically early and end up doing the heavy lifting in the crusades. After the levy nerf nobody can beat them to contribution early on. Just spend 165 piety even as a count and you can pretty much expect to win the crusade.

Andaries · Mar 8, 2014

Closet Skeleton said:
Historically, there was only one successful land conquering crusade and it pre-dated all the orders, so they couldn't have won the crusade by default.

except for you know the Baltic crusades

Which was a land conquest and successful and resulted in a holy order holding land. Then their is will the Knight in Rhodes and later Malta.... Though they were sold Malta by the king of Argon.

To be fair most holy orders gained strength post Muslim reconquest of the holy land. Knights Templar rivaled the king of France in land holding in France part of the reason for the French king getting them expelled so he could retake the land and profits of the order.

The Teutonic order only lost power after the Lithuanian conversion and merging with Poland then losing the subsequent wars.

As for the hospetlars the became the knights of Malta and lingered on tell Napoleon.

Orders becoming land holding forces not that far fetched it not only happened but could of easily slipped towards the side of ridicules and If Templar survived the king of France plot or even reversed it they would of been a force in western Europe.

Teutonic knights wining any of the few wars the lost would of completely reversed their downward spiral and elevated them to a permanent powerhouse of the Baltic.

If the knights hospitaler got more support then just Malta they might of expended into north Africa or asia minor.

So holy order getting land not to out of the box of history plausibility.

Edit: problem with holy order and land is it was an event that gained power in the later end of the game time frame. and shouldn't happen easily pre 1100's

djrice247 · Mar 8, 2014

Andaries said:
except for you know the Baltic crusades Which was a land conquest and successful and resulted in a holy order holding land. Then their is will the Knight in Rhodes and later Malta.... Though they were sold Malta by the king of Argon.

To be fair most holy orders gained strength post Muslim reconquest of the holy land. Knights Templar rivaled the king of France in land holding in France part of the reason for the French king getting them expelled so he could retake the land and profits of the order.

The Teutonic order only lost power after the Lithuanian conversion and merging with Poland then losing the subsequent wars.

As for the hospetlars the became the knights of Malta and lingered on tell Napoleon.

Orders becoming land holding forces not that far fetched it not only happened but could of easily slipped towards the side of ridicules and If Templar survived the king of France plot or even reversed it they would of been a force in western Europe.

Teutonic knights wining any of the few wars the lost would of completely reversed their downward spiral and elevated them to a permanent powerhouse of the Baltic.

If the knights hospitaler got more support then just Malta they might of expended into north Africa or asia minor.

So holy order getting land not to out of the box of history plausibility.

Edit: problem with holy order and land is it was an event that gained power in the later end of the game time frame. and shouldn't happen easily pre 1100's

I agree with this interpretation and the citation to history is accurate. The Teutonic Knights were *the* power in the Baltic for several hundred years. The battle that led to their demise (I forgot the name) at the behest of Poland-Lithuania was a huge shock to most of Europe. Also, they only disintegrated because more than 80% of their members died in the battle and the order was forced to ransom the rest (who were all prisoners).

Sweawm · Mar 8, 2014

Just to even things up a little, I allowed Orthodoxy to wage crusades and soon Islam was wiped out all the Middle East and Africa came under the Holy Order of the Sceptre within a few hundred years. Then they went and battled against the Knight Templar who ruled all of Eastern Europe (without modifications or my own intervention)

Hopit · Mar 8, 2014

Sweawm said:
Just to even things up a little, I allowed Orthodoxy to wage crusades and soon Islam was wiped out all the Middle East and Africa came under the Holy Order of the Sceptre within a few hundred years. Then they went and battled against the Knight Templar who ruled all of Eastern Europe (without modifications or my own intervention)

Try to allow them to hold crusades only after mending the Schism, that late it doesn't matter do you use a crusade or not.

unmerged(47028) · Mar 8, 2014

The holly orders should get much lower contribution calculation like with the Pope and all problems will be solved.

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Lots of Holy Orders controlling crusader states

jordanjay29

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scelestus13

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Closet Skeleton

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NewbieOne

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Andaries

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djrice247

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Sweawm

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Hopit

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unmerged(47028)

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