Has there been any explanation on why the Byzantine De Jure (I'm playing Byzantium in the Old Gods) is what it is? I was wondering why it doesn't cover more of what was the East Roman Empire proper: including lands lost with the rise of Islam.
Byzantine De Jure
- Thread starter Pontiac
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Well in the eyes of the byzantines, the entire world was de jure theirs, its just that those silly barbarians didn't want to acknowledge the fact.
I can imagine why they would think so. However, for the sake of history, are there any historical documents that would support that claim?
The Byzantines viewed themselves as the Roman Empire, no qualifiers to it, ever since the Western Empire fell.
As Alastor states, the Byzantines considered all of the lost territories of Rome theirs. If this was modelled however, then it would be ridiculously easy for the Emperor to vassalise and conquer everything from Mesopotamia to the Scottish border. Even taking Justinian's (re)conquests as the model to use, then it is still easy for an Emperor (even an AI) to conquer much faster- usually when Basil finally dies, most of de jure Byzantium is reclaimed.
Therefore it has to be more about balance then historical claims, unfortunately.
@jordarkelf: I may misunderstand you, but are you stating that the Eastern Empire (which due to Gibbons infernal historiographical terminology is referred to as Byzantium) was not the rightful and legal continuation of the Empire? If so, then most contemporaries of the period, as well as most modern historians, would rather disagree with you.
Therefore it has to be more about balance then historical claims, unfortunately.
@jordarkelf: I may misunderstand you, but are you stating that the Eastern Empire (which due to Gibbons infernal historiographical terminology is referred to as Byzantium) was not the rightful and legal continuation of the Empire? If so, then most contemporaries of the period, as well as most modern historians, would rather disagree with you.
No, I'm stating exactly the opposite. They ARE the Roman Empire -- not 'Eastern Roman Empire', or 'Greek Roman Empire', or 'Empire of Byzantium' -- simply THE ROMAN EMPIRE.
That few in the west agreed with this is not the Emperor's concern
Ahh, apologies then. I'm more used to people erroneously claiming that they aren't, and that the silly German Empire of Charlemagne was the rightful Empire (shudders).
The other empires have those lands as de jure claims. If they gave Byzantium claims over all of what they should the other in game empires would have almost no land, and I don't think the engine allows for multiple empires to claim the same provinces.
True, that's what the Restore the Roman Empire decision is for. If you actually manage to conquer back the lands lost after Trajan's rule, you get it all de jure.
No, I'm stating exactly the opposite. They ARE the Roman Empire -- not 'Eastern Roman Empire', or 'Greek Roman Empire', or 'Empire of Byzantium' -- simply THE ROMAN EMPIRE.
That few in the west agreed with this is not the Emperor's concern
But that is the point. De jure represents more than merely one nation's claims to a particular area. De jure lands are considered a 'rightful' part of a particular realm, not only by the ruler of that realm, but also other rulers and the population of those lands. Which is why you get more levies from dejure vassals and why dejure vassals are more reluctant to start independence factions etc. Asia Minor and Greece are most definitely Byzantine dejure territory, but the rest is very iffy, at least in a 1066 start.
Sicily for instance was considered part of the HRE by the Holy Roman emperors and both Henry II and Henry III intervened in Sicily, Henry II even waged war on the Byzantines over what he considered "his" land. The Papacy too laid claims to sovereignty over this area. And of course the Lombards, Normans and Arabs that lived there all resented the Greeks. Croatia, Serbia and Georgia on the other hand were independent and while they did acknowledge Byzantine sovereignty at times, they were never under direct imperial administration.
Really, Paradox is very inconsistent with its dejure map. For instance Italy is not dejure HRE, even though it most definitely was, to make the Italians resent imperial authority and revolt, yet ERE is given all these independent realms to eat at its leisure, even though its claims are many degrees weaker.
Last edited:
as was already pointed out, "de jure" is not only a specific term, but also a major factor in the game mechanics. AI aims to unite de jure territory first (and tends to expand slower once it has reached it's rightful borders). If all the map was de jure Roman be pre-set, as in the 117 ad map, it would lead to the Emperor declaring de jure claims on single revolting counties in Spain first, because the fat King of Bulgaria infront of his door is too strong to be picked off as easy target by the ai.
My original question was about De Jure for the Eastern Empire, particularly regarding it's Eastern Territories lost with the rise of Islam. Granted the Byzantines saw themselves as the Roman Empire, even so there was a Western and Eastern Empire for the bulk of that later phases of the Empire's existence. If the game engine does not allow multiple states to have cross over De Jure claims: who has the De Jure claims for the Levant and Egypt in the Old Gods? Is it given to the Abbasids?
Actually, from what ive read the byzantines had made treaties and agreements with the caliphs that you could say conceded "de jure" control over their old territories in the east to the Arabs, at least in gameplay terms.
But what is 'de jure' is fiction anyway.
But what is 'de jure' is fiction anyway.
Last edited:
It's whats de facto that matters really, de jure is just a more-or-less recognized area that is supposedly a part of a state.
Isn't the Byz de-jure area the lands held by Basil II in 1025, when the empire was at it's strongest since Justinian? If so, then it's probably set that way as to guide the AI/Player where to focus on first.
As far as I know Egypt and the Levant are part of the de jure Arabian Empire. And I believe the Abassids hold that title, so yes. It is given to the Abassids.
Nope. What you get is 1000 prestige. Although as the Roman Empire you get a special CB against kingdoms that were mostly within Trajan's borders.
Nope. Venice and Georgia were definitely not part of the Empire, even then. Nor was Sicily, although parts of southern Italy were. I'm not sure how far up the Adriatic their control extended.
From the point of view of Christian Europe, I think k_Syria and k_Jerusalem probably should be in de iure BYZ like when the game was released.