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Espionage Ideas, Supporting Rebels and Guerilla warfare.

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Brawler

Brawler

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Apr 3, 2013
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I searched but could not find any good guides for using espionage ideas to topple neighbouring Nations and bend them to your will with rebel uprising.

From what I've read of popular Ideas threads no one really recommends Espionage Ideas unless you're playing multiplayer.

Does anyone ever use Espionage Ideas in single player games and do you find it useful? Can you still support decent rebels after 1690 when cores disappear? I have not yet used this idea group but I'm interested in giving it a go in my next game. I'm just unsure what to expect as there isn't a lot of praise for this idea group. Also does anyone know of a guide for how to use rebels effectively? I tried supporting rebels a few times but fell flat on my face.
 
Good questions!

I wonder about the same thing as I love the idea of using covert actions. It is like one more tool in your arsenal to expand your power, if you know how to use it like a master. Unfortunately I havent tried it out yet.

My question will be: Can you support nationalist rebels in late game, that will make cores for a country appear??
For example, lets say Denmark has united scandinavia long ago, so all swedish and norwegian cores have disappeared. Now you are a neighbour and have a hard time. If you coud use spies to fund nationalist swedes and norwegians, who take over province and make cores appear back, it would be useful!
 
They nerved espionage and supporting rebels.

1.)
In the first version, a minimum money support gave +3% revolt risk, and higher amount of money made them only stronger and a higher respawn rate.
Now every tick of money increase the revolt rist to a maximum of 3%. For really small country, it is now uneconimcal. You need the income for it.

2.)
Second, they nerved nationalist rebells, too. For example, when i release persia as country, all nationalist rebells will all sieged provinces in timurid will despawn at the moment of creation of persia...
 
You can break your enemy's alliances by sabotaging reputation of certain other states, since it stacks.
I also use it when vassalizing (I like having a small state) and want to recover my vassal's cores.

It's one of my favourite ideas, suits my playstyle perfectly.
 
"Infiltrate administration" is quite useful, the rest are so much underpowered they will only work on mid/small size countries who are already in a really bad shape.

Support rebels looks nice but most of the time there aren't even rebels to support (especially when you go into the 18th century), sabotage reputation is in theory quite powerful but any large countries won't even be bothered by a -50 relations malus, I mean their allies already have opinions of +200 so dropping to +150 is not a big (or even small) deal at all.

Oh and the least useful : sow discontent : increased revolt risk ? -> yeah really useful since their aren't even possible rebels to support, and the stab cost is actually counter productive since before the target even has to increase it's stab your diplo will be discovered and you'll get a nice massive opinion penalty.

Spy's get discovered to easily, if you want the minimum efficiency against a country your at war with you'll need 3 diplomats to support rebels, infiltrate admin and sow discontent, considering they'll last a year before being discovered you'll end up with a nice "-300" relations malus for covert actions.

The best bonus in the tree is the embargo one...
 
Rebel support is quite situational, but can be extremely useful. What it doesn't tell you is that if a nation is created by those rebels, you will automatically get a +200 relations bonus with them as well as an alliance.

Infiltrate admin is very useful fighting against any blob so you know where their armies are.

Sabotage Rep you use on a nation already being aggressive such that even more nations join in the coalition against them.

I seriously consider taking Espionage a lot just because late game it seems there is always some @#$@# @#$#$#@$ nation constantly sowing discontent and sabotaging reputation against me. Lithuania, Russia, whoever, they are always hitting me with it. Isn't there supposed to be a "Spy Discovered" CB? Unless you have vetting yourself or are trading in tobacco or whatever, there is like no way to stop these constant global espionages because some late-game nation is certainly going to be using it on you, and it's extremely annoying to be saddled with a 50% stab increase nonstop. Pretty sure the building upgrades do nothing except against fabricating a claim on that specific province.
 
Ethanol said:
"Infiltrate administration" is quite useful, the rest are so much underpowered they will only work on mid/small size countries who are already in a really bad shape.

Support rebels looks nice but most of the time there aren't even rebels to support (especially when you go into the 18th century), sabotage reputation is in theory quite powerful but any large countries won't even be bothered by a -50 relations malus, I mean their allies already have opinions of +200 so dropping to +150 is not a big (or even small) deal at all.

Oh and the least useful : sow discontent : increased revolt risk ? -> yeah really useful since their aren't even possible rebels to support, and the stab cost is actually counter productive since before the target even has to increase it's stab your diplo will be discovered and you'll get a nice massive opinion penalty.

Spy's get discovered to easily, if you want the minimum efficiency against a country your at war with you'll need 3 diplomats to support rebels, infiltrate admin and sow discontent, considering they'll last a year before being discovered you'll end up with a nice "-300" relations malus for covert actions.

The best bonus in the tree is the embargo one...
Click to expand...

That is why you also get diplomacy: one advisor increases relations, the other one sows discontent.
It's a matter of playstyle, really .. if you choose the espionage ideas you have an added toolbox of choices that other nations don't have. Make it so that you don't have to fight your own wars and you'll be the meanest, most hated/loved state in the West. Basically be Israel. Best country to do such a thing is Venice, in my opinion.
 
Thanks for the comments so far.

With rebellions it would seem better to use them when you're at war with someone as they would be suffering from war exhaustion and increase the chance of rebellions.

Does anyone use rebels this way? For example, wipe out the enemy forces and manpower then instead of conquering their nation then incite revolts and let the rebels take over. Changing enemy religion using rebels so you don't have to or forming a new country who is then loyal to you that you can vassalise etc.? Are there options like these with use of rebels?
 
Brawler said:
Thanks for the comments so far.

With rebellions it would seem better to use them when you're at war with someone as they would be suffering from war exhaustion and increase the chance of rebellions.

Does anyone use rebels this way? For example, wipe out the enemy forces and manpower then instead of conquering their nation then incite revolts and let the rebels take over. Changing enemy religion using rebels so you don't have to or forming a new country who is then loyal to you that you can vassalise etc.? Are there options like these with use of rebels?
Click to expand...

War exhaustion is no longer THAT important as it was in 1.1. This was a nice strategy then, but it became obsolete in 1.2 and nothing changed in 1.3. You would have to hold a country in a war years, fully occupied to get war exhaustion high enough to overcome all the -'s to national revolt risk. Unless of course the country is already extremely unstable and could not defeat the rebels on its own anyway but then you would not have to use such a strategy. And as someone already said: To get +3% revolt risk you have to spend HUGE amounts of money every month for a medium or large country and for small countries you would probably not need to do this. I'd say war exhaustion is more detrimental to the winning side of a war as you get "Call for peace" sooner or later which will make it rise pretty fast.
 
I tried espionage in my recent Austria - HRE game and I regret it. I am in 1650s and I almost have no rebels to support and -50 rep malus is too small. I used infiltrate administrative a few times, but that is it. You can use this idea somehow effectively versus small nations, but that is in my opinion not needed. You cannot use this idea effectively versus big nations, which will be in most cases your greatest rivals- underpowered idea.
 
I've found sabotage relations useful in the few months prior to me DOWing a country with local allies.
 
Rya said:
War exhaustion is no longer THAT important as it was in 1.1. This was a nice strategy then, but it became obsolete in 1.2 and nothing changed in 1.3. You would have to hold a country in a war years, fully occupied to get war exhaustion high enough to overcome all the -'s to national revolt risk. Unless of course the country is already extremely unstable and could not defeat the rebels on its own anyway but then you would not have to use such a strategy. And as someone already said: To get +3% revolt risk you have to spend HUGE amounts of money every month for a medium or large country and for small countries you would probably not need to do this. I'd say war exhaustion is more detrimental to the winning side of a war as you get "Call for peace" sooner or later which will make it rise pretty fast.
Click to expand...

It's actually pretty funny that the only time anyone gets substantial WE past 1500 or so is when you get Call for Peace.
 
I've always been a fan of espionage in SP. It is incredibly useful for countries that don't have super high manpower(with the caveat that they have enough to take advantage of weakened countries), or that face lots of strong webs of alliances. Like others have said, and IMHO, sabotage reputation is probably the most powerful covert action. Dropping an enemy to -200 relations with their neighbors will almost always destroy any alliances they have with them. For Instance, it's devastating to Castille's alliances with Aragon and Portugal. Also, consider Austria instantly being disliked by all her neighbors. If those are electors, like Bohemia and Bavaria, then you can help the HRE implode.

In my current France game, I don't have espionage yet, but I did excommunicate Austria for a -50 relations on her before declaring war. As soon as I drained a pinch of her manpower, her electors and some other OPM and Moderates dog piled. Austria is a non-threat now, and will no longer be Emperor for a while.

However, it isn't a panacea. Like all idea groups(save 1 or 2) it is situational. I found it very useful as England. In my current France game, I think it will also be useful later on, as France faces many alliances in order to expand.
 
Question about sabotage reputation; lets say two countries have an alliance (that you want to break!) with each other, and you sabotage both nations reputation. Will they both get a -50 diplo modifier so that the total effect is -100?

After I typed this I realised that it dont work that way, they just get a -50 each against each other. Damn, that will only break the shakiest of alliances.
 
LiberiusX said:
I've always been a fan of espionage in SP. It is incredibly useful for countries that don't have super high manpower(with the caveat that they have enough to take advantage of weakened countries), or that face lots of strong webs of alliances. Like others have said, and IMHO, sabotage reputation is probably the most powerful covert action. Dropping an enemy to -200 relations with their neighbors will almost always destroy any alliances they have with them. For Instance, it's devastating to Castille's alliances with Aragon and Portugal. Also, consider Austria instantly being disliked by all her neighbors. If those are electors, like Bohemia and Bavaria, then you can help the HRE implode.

In my current France game, I don't have espionage yet, but I did excommunicate Austria for a -50 relations on her before declaring war. As soon as I drained a pinch of her manpower, her electors and some other OPM and Moderates dog piled. Austria is a non-threat now, and will no longer be Emperor for a while.

However, it isn't a panacea. Like all idea groups(save 1 or 2) it is situational. I found it very useful as England. In my current France game, I think it will also be useful later on, as France faces many alliances in order to expand.
Click to expand...

How do you plan to drop a country by -200? Sabotage is doing only -50 and you cannot excommunicate everyone for another malus. I find -50 so low.
 
Dr. B said:
Question about sabotage reputation; lets say two countries have an alliance (that you want to break!) with each other, and you sabotage both nations reputation. Will they both get a -50 diplo modifier so that the total effect is -100?

After I typed this I realised that it dont work that way, they just get a -50 each against each other. Damn, that will only break the shakiest of alliances.
Click to expand...

In 1.1 you it stacked to -200. I think it still does. You can send your diplomat, he sabotages for -50, recall, then send again.

Honestly, I think it should work like a reverse improve relations, ticking to -200 or something. Until then, it's pretty useful.

Nadrak said:
How do you plan to drop a country by -200? Sabotage is doing only -50 and you cannot excommunicate everyone for another malus. I find -50 so low.
Click to expand...

See above. Though maybe they changed it since 1.1.
 
That does sound pretty useful! I'm finding late game I tend to face big blob alliances which can be bothersome if I wish to expand. With sabotage reputation it seems late game conquest might just be a bit easier.
 
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