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Beta Israel and Sons of Abraham?

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Olaus Petrus

Olaus Petrus

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Nov 20, 2004
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I know that the Jewish Khazars are confirmed, but Ethiopian legends tell that from the 9th century onwards there was a long conflict between Axum and Jewish Kingdom of Semien (located near Gondar), now that Jews are added into the game, I was wondering if it will affect to Ethiopian setting and will we see Ethiopian Jews (aka. Beta Israel) in game.
 
Olaus Petrus said:
I know that the Jewish Khazars are confirmed, but Ethiopian legends tell that from the 9th century onwards there was a long conflict between Axum and Jewish Kingdom of Semien (located near Gondar), now that Jews are added into the game, I was wondering if it will affect to Ethiopian setting and will we see Ethiopian Jews (aka. Beta Israel) in game.
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Based on current information, no. But nothing stops you from making one of the local rulers Jewish with ruler designer if you want to try model it (*1066 probably being better choice from historical point of view)

*Quick googling about historical region would indicate closest way to model it is to make Duchy of Axum jewish but grant it's two western counties independence.
 
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Legends don't usually make valid historical sources.
 
Actually, it is not so much a legend, people simply cannot agree when the Kingdom was founded. It was annexed into the Ethiopian Empire in the 1600s. Semien should, in my opinion be included in the expansion, if anything for a second Jewish dynasty to play. Mods that add Judaism (such as CKII+) add Semien and honestly I couldn't imagine the game without them.
 
Jewish counties in Abyssinia are a must, but really that whole area just needs more provinces.

Some (very controversial) theories state that Jewish immigration to Ethiopia started before the birth of Christ and that the Kings were already Jewish before they converted to Christianity in 324 AD. Ethiopian Christianity is much more Jewish in character than Catholicism/Orthodoxy but that might just be a lack of Greek influence as much as a result of more Jewish influence.
 
sreckom92 said:
Legends don't usually make valid historical sources.
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When I speak about legendary Ethiopian sources I use the word legend in similar manner as I would call early parts in Norse sagas and Russian chronicles legendary or semi-legendary. It doesn't matter much in game if there are legendary figures in it (currently there are some), but from historiographical point of view it is always worth mentioning if the material contains legendary elements, like early Ethiopian histories do.
 
Just passing through today - but I'd like to put in a recommendation: there's a very fine new study out from Glen Bowersock called The Throne of Adulis (Oxford, 2013), which is to my knowledge the first study explicitly dedicated to the conflict between Christian and Jewish polities around the Red Sea (primarily the axis between Yemen and Axum) in the pre-Islamic era. While certainly too early a period to have any direct impact on the subject of this thread, it might be useful for modders and the generally interested.
 
classicist said:
Just passing through today - but I'd like to put in a recommendation: there's a very fine new study out from Glen Bowersock called The Throne of Adulis (Oxford, 2013), which is to my knowledge the first study explicitly dedicated to the conflict between Christian and Jewish polities around the Red Sea (primarily the axis between Yemen and Axum) in the pre-Islamic era. While certainly too early a period to have any direct impact on the subject of this thread, it might be useful for modders and the generally interested.
Click to expand...

While the topic of Arabian Jews itself is fascinating, I assume this book probably focuses more to Jewish kingdom of Himyar in Yemen, which was destroyed by Christian Ethiopians before the rise of Islam and it probably doesn't have much about Ethiopian Jews and their history.

I really hope that they include Semien in game, because not including second Jewish power would be waste of religious mechanics (there's not much point to develop mechanics for just one ruler). I think that Zoroastrian mechanics are mostly wasted in the game, because they usually disappear after few decades. And besides conquering the Abyssinia, Arabia and Middle East as Ethiopian Jews would be awesome.
 
Olaus Petrus said:
I really hope that they include Semien in game, because not including second Jewish power would be waste of religious mechanics (there's not much point to develop mechanics for just one ruler). I think that Zoroastrian mechanics are mostly wasted in the game, because they usually disappear after few decades. And besides conquering the Abyssinia, Arabia and Middle East as Ethiopian Jews would be awesome.
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Given the fact that SoA is going to introduce religious rebels, there is a chance that we'll be seeing Zoroastrian rulers more often, as a result of successful revolts.
 
Simmy93 said:
Actually, it is not so much a legend, people simply cannot agree when the Kingdom was founded. It was annexed into the Ethiopian Empire in the 1600s. Semien should, in my opinion be included in the expansion, if anything for a second Jewish dynasty to play. Mods that add Judaism (such as CKII+) add Semien and honestly I couldn't imagine the game without them.
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Paradox won't include them because Paradox does not care what goes on in Africa
 
sreckom92 said:
Legends don't usually make valid historical sources.
Click to expand...

Aside from what Olaus says below this post, there is also the fact that there are other sources for Semien's existence. It existed, we simply know nothing about it.

I also hope they include it. It will be just about the hardest thing to play in the entire game, though :p.
 
sreckom92 said:
Legends don't usually make valid historical sources.
Click to expand...

Nothing legendary about it tbh, even centuries later their descendants were alive and kicking in the area, and the existance of a jewish state in the area (Not the kingdom of Semien tough, which is an anachronism) is not dispute by non-jewish communities. Problem is, like alot of ethiopian history in general, oral tradition accounts for alot of it and the european concept of "Kingdom" dont really apply to Ethiopia. By most accounts, the kingdom of Semien was more of a breakaway revolter than an entity separated from ethiopia which, due to the inherit complications of the terrain, got to stick around and become its own little separated corner of ethiopia.

As for the game, I believe in the game map, the semien region is just around the edge of the map, so that would require abit of a bump south. Im fine either way.

As an off-topic, Id like to say that while the jews are mostly gone, having been brought to Israel (operation moses, operation solomon), Ive had the chance to visit the region and besides being quite beautiful, its also one of the most mix-mashed places of the world in terms of abrahamic religious co-existance. Might warrant a trip to the more adventurous :)
 
We won't get Semien unless PI actually revamps Africa, which is in need of a revamp anyways.
 
OrdepNM said:
As for the game, I believe in the game map, the semien region is just around the edge of the map, so that would require abit of a bump south. Im fine either way.
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Actually Semien Mountains (core area of Beta Israel) are between Gondar and Aksum. Both are on the map and city of Gondar is surrounded with regions which are traditionally associated with Beta Israel and their kingdom.
 
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cybrxkhan said:
We won't get Semien unless PI actually revamps Africa, which is in need of a revamp anyways.
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I reckon they will. Wouldn't hurt to expand a bit further to the south and east really, if only to make it so that there's a more sensible cut off in certain titles and so that the Mongols and other invaders don't have half their empire missing.
 
Ols said:
I reckon they will. Wouldn't hurt to expand a bit further to the south and east really, if only to make it so that there's a more sensible cut off in certain titles and so that the Mongols and other invaders don't have half their empire missing.
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Expanding the map just a tad bit east and south I think is reasonable and won't affect the game nor performance that much (in contrast to the relatively frequent demands to expand the map by hundreds of provinces all the way into China and. India), and in the case of east Africa it would really be helpful. At this point East Africa is just the big blob of Abyssinia and the smaller blobs of Nubia and Somalia, which is as nice as having Western Europe be only the HRE, France, and Scotland. - hopefully someday PI will add more provinces, cultures, and titles to the region. It's not an immediate need, but I would really like to see that eventually.
 
Closet Skeleton said:
Jewish counties in Abyssinia are a must, but really that whole area just needs more provinces.

Some (very controversial) theories state that Jewish immigration to Ethiopia started before the birth of Christ and that the Kings were already Jewish before they converted to Christianity in 324 AD. Ethiopian Christianity is much more Jewish in character than Catholicism/Orthodoxy but that might just be a lack of Greek influence as much as a result of more Jewish influence.
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Very controversial? Thats the entire basis of the Ethiopian ruling dynasty's right to rule, that they're descended directly from King Solomon.
 
Olaus Petrus said:
While the topic of Arabian Jews itself is fascinating, I assume this book probably focuses more to Jewish kingdom of Himyar in Yemen, which was destroyed by Christian Ethiopians before the rise of Islam and it probably doesn't have much about Ethiopian Jews and their history.
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A correct assumption. The Himyarites (or 'Homeritae' as some classical sources liked to style them, no doubt enjoying a bit of literary allusion as in so many ethnographies) are approachable than most groups of that area/context because of their plentiful surviving coinage - hence the focus by a many a classical scholar on them. While I haven't yet had the time to go through the whole, it would seem that the later histories of Ethiopian Judaism and Christianity are outside the chronological scope. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if some vestiges of the exacerbated religious relations would have trickled down in the historical tradition of the broader area, leading to such hostile - and clearly polemically constructed - images as that of Queen Gudit.

Olaus Petrus said:
I really hope that they include Semien in game, because not including second Jewish power would be waste of religious mechanics (there's not much point to develop mechanics for just one ruler). I think that Zoroastrian mechanics are mostly wasted in the game, because they usually disappear after few decades. And besides conquering the Abyssinia, Arabia and Middle East as Ethiopian Jews would be awesome.
Click to expand...

I agree with all of those points.
 
Olaus Petrus said:
Actually Semien Mountains (core area of Beta Israel) are between Gondar and Aksum. Both are on the map and city of Gondar is surrounded with regions which are traditionally associated with Beta Israel and their kingdom.
Click to expand...

Oh I see, my bad then. I only play mods who change the area and I was under the impression the vanilla map cuts just before Gondar, judging by what other people have said.
 
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