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Punderland

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Jun 18, 2008
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I know this has been written before, but I really want one.

We all know that the Japanese are obsessed with remaking old Chinese history into games. Especially Three Kingdom Period.

But the real essence of old China is the warring states and Spring and Autumn Period. There are many good scenarios could be made out of it and it can be a new ip for Clausewitz Engine. And I can say it would be very interesting if it could be made with the attention paid to details in EU 4.

Please, make us one. :confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
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There's one about the warring states period.

KINGDOM

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images
 
I'm trying to make a EU4 mod for this time period (not Three Kingdoms though, pre-Qin dynasty period). I meant to do it in CK2 but my interest fell off when I couldn't figure out a way to make inheritance realistic xD. The biggest problem I have at the moment is how to model warfare correctly, though. Any ideas would be welcomed there.

Anyway, the point in my rambling is that, what starting year/scenario would you like to see in an Ancient China game?
 
There should be a CKII style game that encompasses East Asia, though it won't be feudal. I'd play it, but unfortunately it wouldn't be as popular as medieval Europe.
 
I'm trying to make a EU4 mod for this time period (not Three Kingdoms though, pre-Qin dynasty period). I meant to do it in CK2 but my interest fell off when I couldn't figure out a way to make inheritance realistic xD. The biggest problem I have at the moment is how to model warfare correctly, though. Any ideas would be welcomed there.

Anyway, the point in my rambling is that, what starting year/scenario would you like to see in an Ancient China game?

They're adding an appointment inheritance in the new expansion, which should make that easier. If you were making this, you should start with the partition of Jin in 453.
 
They're adding an appointment inheritance in the new expansion, which should make that easier. If you were making this, you should start with the partition of Jin in 453.
I hadn't noticed this. Thanks for pointing it out, I shall give it some testing.


Could be cool if someone was willing to take the EU4 map, and convert it to CK2.
The good thing is that those bits are relatively easily convertible.
 
Considering Sengoku didn't do that well and this is an even less well known period of history among westerners, it would probably be a tough sell for Paradox.
Sengoku had it's own problems. Mainly the fact it was too Goal focused. Diplomacy itself also didn't seem to really matter in the end and the plots and espionage never really seemed to work. For a game that's just about becoming shougan then just playing EU3 DW or EU4 are more fun and even provide more options. That said i think Pdox should do an Asian themed game with the farthest west modern country being Afganistan. and have it go all the way east to Korea and possibly japan. Personaly i'd set the at a point just prior or during the Mongol hoards march to the west just to give a little room for a possible Eu4 exporter dlc
 
There should be a CKII style game that encompasses East Asia, though it won't be feudal. I'd play it, but unfortunately it wouldn't be as popular as medieval Europe.

I humbly disagree! I think if people are enticed enough about the history of ancient China it will be just as popular!
 
I'd love to see a history game like this made, I think Capcom did something like this way back in the day so it's not unfeasible. However:

1) The Chinese government hasn't been too friendly to Paradox, even if Paradox have plenty of fans there. A historically accurate game about China may well raise hackles (e.g., does it show Tibet/Xinjiang/Taiwan/Inner Mongolia/Manchuria as being part of China at that time? Vietnam?). Paradox would hope for sales there, but it may not be possible (does Steam sell into China?).

2) There's just loads of piracy in China, so how this game could actually make money from that market is an open question.

3) A lot of background research would be needed - I think Paradox are capable of this, but maybe a regional developer (e.g., Taiwan/HK) might make a better job of it.

But hey, as has been pointed out, you could make a mod for CK2 aiming to model China. This would be no more labour-intensive than the GoT mod has been.
 
3) A lot of background research would be needed - I think Paradox are capable of this, but maybe a regional developer (e.g., Taiwan/HK) might make a better job of it.
Some things on the Far East in EU4 might cast doubt on that :p

But hey, as has been pointed out, you could make a mod for CK2 aiming to model China. This would be no more labour-intensive than the GoT mod has been.
GoT was however modelled upon Western feudalism, which CK2 was developed for. I'm not saying it is harder to apply the game to China than it was to create Westeross, but many things are certainly considerably different.

For example:
Inheritance: Inheritance was Agnatic Primogenitre, but with the wife's sons taking precedence over concubines, with the possibility for rulers to bypass the rule.
Army: Spring and Autumn armies were limited to 3 armies for major powers, 2 for medium powers, and 1 for minor states, of 12,500 people each (at least nominally).
Army II: Spring and Autumn states operated citizen armies, in which conquered peoples and farmers were not eligible.
Army III: Warring States armies were mass peasant levies and could not be raised all the time unless the country was sufficiently stocked with supplies and food.
Warfare: Long term wars (~months) were impossible to finance and logistics were a massive limiting factor.
Warfare II: Spring and Autumn states were essentially city states vying for farmlands that should be won and lost at little cost (warscore).
Warfare III: Warring States states transitioned to building cities for more effective rule; control were based on whose armies were in the city.
Sieges I: Defenders often fortified large armies within major settlements, which were not easily taken.
Sieges II: Mountain passes were hugely effective chokepoints that could not be easily by passed by, well, walking through them.
Administrative I: The central government ruled the country directly with appointed officials, rather than feudalism.
Administrative II: Powerful nobles existed with hereditary estates and private armies, and tried to co-opt public lands into their private domains.
Administrative III: Population was important; losses on the battlefield was expensive to replace and directly harms productoin.
Politics: Tribal politics dominates the Spring and Autumn period especially smaller states, which constrains the ability of rulers to wage war etc.
Diplomatic: Spring and Autumn international affairs were dominated by the major states attempting to become hegemons, collecting nominally sovereign satellites.

Just some things off the top of my head. Some of these could be modelled, and others could be ignored. But, the inability to garrison a large citizen army of the nation at the capital, for example, means that small states could be ahistorically easily gobbled up - even if maintenance were raised to model the inability of states at the time to actually field armies for any length of time. That's not to say CK2 doesn't have a very good framework already. It definitely does. But there's limits on what you could do with modding, unfortunately.
 
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I'm glad to this thread being created again ;)

Obviously a Warring States era game would be awesome, but it has to be very well done and not feel lackluster like Sengoku.

It could use a character-driven system loosely based on Crusader Kings with a greater emphasis put on Generals and military leaders rather than on dynasties (which were kinda irrelevant at the time, as it was an era where the strongest faction ruled).

But IMO the grand-strategy genre would be illsuited to the era. I'd much rather see a game mixing Total War and Mount&Blade elements to focus on the action with some administrative, diplomatic and strategic management on the campaign map.
Playing as a General during the era (inspired by the idea behind the manga Kingdom of course ;p), you would lead your men into grand battles where using cunning strategy and tactics as well as audacious moves is the key to dominate the battlefield. You could chose to oversee battles from afar or directly lead the charge. Appoint generals to your armies and regiment, etc. Vow your loyalty to a kingdom or another, or defect and try to unify china for yourself, that kind of thing.

What is most important during this era are several concepts :
- The 7 books of military strategy (including Sun Tzu's Art of War) which were inspired and inspired great military leaders of the time and beyond, which placed a greater emphasis on strategy rather than raw strength to military conflicts
- The importance of merit and personal achievements over birthrights and bloodline
- The increased scale of warfare, involving hundreds of thousand men in battles (one of the greatest leader of the time, Bai Qi, is said to have been responsible for more than 800 000 casualties in his entire carreer, culminating with the battle of Changping where he supposedly inflicted 450 000 losses to the Zhao army). Even if chroniclers most assuredly exaggerated numbers, the era was particularly bloody. Also the introduction of cavalry to the battlefield (ending the domination of war chariots)

This is what the manga/anime kingdom captures so well in its low-fantasy / quasi-historical setting, and what should be emphasized in a Warring states game, and that's why for me such a game needs to depict actual battles and allow you to participate and command troops from the battlefield (which is not really paradox's forte, i know).
 
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