Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Prussian nationalism

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Victoria 2 17560 After Action Reports (AAR)
comsubpac said:
That too but he never wanted to become emperor and when he accepted the title his comment was that he was digging the grave for the Prussian kingdom. He accepted it because he had no real choice beause prussia allone was too weak.
Click to expand...
Source? I've always heard he really wanted to be Emperor of Germany so that he could also have claims on Austria, Switzerland and Luxembourg. Saying he wanted to become Emperor of Germany while saying at the same time that he didn't want to be Emperor makes no sense.
 
Beaga said:
The cores aren´t the problem.
Click to expand...

No, the cores are the problem.

Ayetach said:
I'm actually okay with the German states' cores existing in unified Germany - lets not forget that despite the existence of a German Empire the kingdoms and duchies below it still existed in the system.
Click to expand...

Yes, but they were not potentially viable independent states in the post-unification period. Most were anachronisms, rather than being part of a truly federal diffusion of power. In any case, Italy was a unitary state which fully abolished the minor principalities, and who knows what a united Scandinavia would have done.

Bavaria declared independence and became a soviet republic before the Weimar Republic put it down.
Click to expand...

As did Alsace. The point being that these were revolutionary socialist "states" which either exploited a political vacuum (Alsace) or subverted the contemporary devolved government (Bavaria) to build a socialist regime. Identifying them as expressions of Bavarian and Alsatian nationalism is a mistake.

sandbox game having those cores in there seem to be keeping to the history in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Sandbox isn't an excuse for anything goes. Retaining the union cores for GER, NGF, ITA and SCA is essentially just a bug, that antihistorically weakens these tags and prevents more historical outcomes from occuring (e.g. Communist Italy, Fascist Germany etc.)

EDIT:
The Scandoinavian example is even better. The nationalist unification ideal was only shared among academics, but I doubt the people would had liked it at all.
Click to expand...

As were most nationalisms throughout the period, heh.
 
Phalanxia said:
No, the cores are the problem.
Click to expand...

Due to game design maybe, but my point was that if removing the cores means zero chance of a rebellion than I´m not sure removing the cores is a good choice. I do think that a "prussian" revolt in Germany should be very rare, but not impossible.
 
Oriflamme said:
Source? I've always heard he really wanted to be Emperor of Germany so that he could also have claims on Austria, Switzerland and Luxembourg. Saying he wanted to become Emperor of Germany while saying at the same time that he didn't want to be Emperor makes no sense.
Click to expand...

Yes, he wanted to be "Emperor of Germany", but the Princes of the other German States wanted him to be "German Emperor". A slight difference, but important enough to make it worht quarreling about.
Comparable to the situation when Friedrich was crowned "König in Preußen" and not "König von Preußen"
 
Phalanxia said:
Yes, but they were not potentially viable independent states in the post-unification period. Most were anachronisms, rather than being part of a truly federal diffusion of power. In any case, Italy was a unitary state which fully abolished the minor principalities, and who knows what a united Scandinavia would have done.
Click to expand...

A fair assertion, but I still don't see it as a problem really - especially since its just a game mechanic that may play a role post unification if things go pear shaped for the empire. To be fair, its not as if everything in this game follows history strictly (Babylon anyone?) so I'm okay with the design of this part of the game in that regard.
 
Kerry said:
Yes, he wanted to be "Emperor of Germany", but the Princes of the other German States wanted him to be "German Emperor". A slight difference, but important enough to make it worht quarreling about.
Comparable to the situation when Friedrich was crowned "König in Preußen" and not "König von Preußen"
Click to expand...
I know, that was my point. But he's arguing that Wilhelm didn't want the imperial title at all, which I've never heard of.
 
Oriflamme said:
I know, that was my point. But he's arguing that Wilhelm didn't want the imperial title at all, which I've never heard of.
Click to expand...

just google "das alte preußen damit zu grabe tragen". he said that during his proclamation in versaille. to his son he said: "...die glänzende preußische Krone mit dieser Schmutzkrone vertauschen müssen". (replacing the shining crown of prussia with this crown of dirt).
his title was indeed a question of rank. considering how closely related the ruling houses of europe were he already had a claim on everything so he didn't need a certain title (irrelevant anyway since he didn't want to be more then prussian king).
 
Last edited:
comsubpac said:
just google "das alte preußen damit zu grabe tragen". he said that during his proclamation in versaille. to his son he said: "...die glänzende preußische Krone mit dieser Schmutzkrone vertauschen müssen". (replacing the shining crown of prussia with this crown of dirt).
his title was indeed a question of rank. considering how closely related the ruling houses of europe were he already had a claim on everything so he didn't need a certain title (irrelevant anyway since he didn't want to be more then prussian king).
Click to expand...

Ok, just learned something new: it seems like Wilhelm indeed preferred the titel King of Prussia to the title Emperor.
Strange, I was convinced that it had to do with the principle that the "King of Prussia" was in his understanding "by the grace of God", while any Emperor title would always have the connotation as being granted (or at least approved) by the princes of the other German states, and tehreby by a lesser authority than God. Maybe a hypothesis made up by my history teacher in highschool?
 
deadmeat1471 said:
I just tried playing Prussia for the first time in AHD.

Rebels. Everywhere.
Click to expand...

Thats funny, becouse this thread inspired my to do a Prussia -> Greater Germany game, and I have only got some really tiny rebellions, and I have'nt had a single prussian nationalistic rebellion. Im now in the year of 1892 and im really wondering what all this rebel fuzz is about. You guys must be doing something wrong :)
 
Kerry said:
Ok, just learned something new: it seems like Wilhelm indeed preferred the titel King of Prussia to the title Emperor.
Strange, I was convinced that it had to do with the principle that the "King of Prussia" was in his understanding "by the grace of God", while any Emperor title would always have the connotation as being granted (or at least approved) by the princes of the other German states, and tehreby by a lesser authority than God. Maybe a hypothesis made up by my history teacher in highschool?
Click to expand...

You or he confused a couple of things most likely: he andnearly everybody important (Bismarck) were against the title emperor of the Germans (kaiser der deutschen) because it was the title rejected by his brother as commoning from the gutter.
Emperor of Germany or German emperor was a question of rank. Wilhelm prefered Emperor of Germany but the other German kings and princes would not have accepted it (Austria was also a problem). During his proclamation that problem was avoided by using "emperor Wilhelm". Later German emperor was used.
 
GreatSlayer said:
It's actually not that very weird. Those people oppose to the idea of a union. Not everyone was happy about the unification, and while the game is going a bit far when it comes to portraying it, it's a reasonable gameplay mechanic.

The Scandoinavian example is even better. The unification ideal was only shared among academics, but I doubt the people would had liked it at all.
Click to expand...

It is strange though, that after pushing for a German nation for decades inspite of opposition by the aristocracy, the people themselves start to revolt to undo the union after the formation of Germany.

IMO, the country who forms the Union should have its cores deleted.
 
comsubpac said:
You or he confused a couple of things most likely: he andnearly everybody important (Bismarck) were against the title emperor of the Germans (kaiser der deutschen) because it was the title rejected by his brother as commoning from the gutter.
Emperor of Germany or German emperor was a question of rank. Wilhelm prefered Emperor of Germany but the other German kings and princes would not have accepted it (Austria was also a problem). During his proclamation that problem was avoided by using "emperor Wilhelm". Later German emperor was used.
Click to expand...

Quite possible, that I messed up a few things, it's been a few years since Highschool. ;)
Anyway, as a proud son of Baden (well, born and educated there), Prussia has always been "foreign and threatening" entity, even in school.
 
comsubpac said:
You or he confused a couple of things most likely: he andnearly everybody important (Bismarck) were against the title emperor of the Germans (kaiser der deutschen) because it was the title rejected by his brother as commoning from the gutter.
Emperor of Germany or German emperor was a question of rank. Wilhelm prefered Emperor of Germany but the other German kings and princes would not have accepted it (Austria was also a problem). During his proclamation that problem was avoided by using "emperor Wilhelm". Later German emperor was used.
Click to expand...

And to be pedantic:
The kings of Baden and Bavaria demanded an emperor to be the only title they would subject to, their issue was their own kingship, not the precise wording of the emperor title. Emperor of Germany at the time however would imply Austria as well, since the Austrian German lands had been part of Germany so this was a no go if you didn't want to make demand against the Austrian emperor so in the end since there were two German emperors and the Prussians wanted to recover relations with the Austrians the title German emperor was the only correct one.
 
mangalore said:
And to be pedantic:
The kings of Baden and Bavaria demanded an emperor to be the only title they would subject to, their issue was their own kingship, not the precise wording of the emperor title. Emperor of Germany at the time however would imply Austria as well, since the Austrian German lands had been part of Germany so this was a no go if you didn't want to make demand against the Austrian emperor so in the end since there were two German emperors and the Prussians wanted to recover relations with the Austrians the title German emperor was the only correct one.
Click to expand...

I guess this is the kings of Bavaria and Württemberg, Baden was Großherzogtum.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back