{Mini-Mod} Kipchaks

Nice work...

+1

Many thanks.

Nice idea, I'm adopting this in my mod.
'Cuman' is a tribe name by the way, the culture should be named Kipchak. Maybe an idea for this mod?

neondt said:

Compatible with PB and VIET!

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Cool. I'll try integrating it into VIET 1.2.0 and see what happens. Should be fun. More nomad options is always good.

Interesting. I'll integrate this into my personal set-up.

I always thought "Cuman" and "Qipchak" was exactly the same thing :unsure:

It was the Cuman-Kipchak confederation, a loose assortment of Turkic tribes. Basically the western ones were called Cumans, the eastern ones Kipchaks. They had the same (or highly similar) language and culture.

Technically the Cumans could be said to be one of the nations of the Kipchaks, it's less often said Kipchaks are Cumans. Pechenegs were also closely related, Khazars and Bulgars a bit more distant.

Leviathan07 said:

I always thought "Cuman" and "Qipchak" was exactly the same thing :unsure:

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Depends on who is speaking. Think of how the Arabs called all non-Greek Europeans "Franks" and you'll see the nature of the metaphor. It's impossible to really nail down how many tribes were represented, but "Cuman" was more of a polity than anything else. The Kipchaks and Cumans represented two confederated groups, themselves confederations of various tribes. The Kipchaks were a little more culturally 'contiguous' for lack of a better word. The Cumans themselves used "Cuman" as more of a statement of political union, and were represented by many tribes, including Kipchaks, Asi, Karalaghi, Terteroba, etc.

In game, it would be best if they were represented as tribal units, quickly-moving, ever-shifting, raiding, allying and betraying one another, but with an AI that has a propensity for staying allied to one another against outside forces. They should have a permanent restriction against higher crown authority. It is not historically feasible for them to have more than maybe the second level (which would revert to none upon the death of the ruler). They should also 'never' rule anything north of the treeline. They were not riverine peoples, nor were they arboreal. Period.

CrackdToothGrin said:

In game, it would be best if they were represented as tribal units, quickly-moving, ever-shifting, raiding, allying and betraying one another, but with an AI that has a propensity for staying allied to one another against outside forces. They should have a permanent restriction against higher crown authority. It is not historically feasible for them to have more than maybe the second level (which would revert to none upon the death of the ruler). They should also 'never' rule anything north of the treeline. They were not riverine peoples, nor were they arboreal. Period.

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Absolutely agreed. Currently the nomads are pretty implausibly simulated in game. Merely making it more difficult for the Mongol hordes to conquer non-grassy or non-steppe territory, for instance, could slow down their expansion. Even though the main focus is on pagans, I hope the Old Gods DLC offers the nomads something substantial in terms of mechanics and not gimmicky, but we'll see. Other than that I was planning at some point in VIET to introduce a unique nomad crown law that basically simulated the keep traditional steppe culture - adopt civilized culture dichotomy many of these groups faced when settling in new lands (Turks over Persia, Mongols over, well, everywhere, etc.), but frankly just restricting or limiting how they can get CA up is sufficient.

cybrxkhan said:

Absolutely agreed. Currently the nomads are pretty implausibly simulated in game. Merely making it more difficult for the Mongol hordes to conquer non-grassy or non-steppe territory, for instance, could slow down their expansion. Even though the main focus is on pagans, I hope the Old Gods DLC offers the nomads something substantial in terms of mechanics and not gimmicky, but we'll see. Other than that I was planning at some point in VIET to introduce a unique nomad crown law that basically simulated the keep traditional steppe culture - adopt civilized culture dichotomy many of these groups faced when settling in new lands (Turks over Persia, Mongols over, well, everywhere, etc.), but frankly just restricting or limiting how they can get CA up is sufficient.

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The size of a personal realm should be tied to a combination of charisma and diplomacy. Crown authority should take a very skilled leader to change, and it should only last the life of the ruler. They should be able to raid one another within the 'realm' without actually declaring full-on independence and risking losing all of their land. They should have a pseudo-permanent casus belli against other tribes along the Steppe, but only for incorporation into their realm without just removing their lands and divvying it up amongst themselves. When they get defeated, some groups should just switch sides, and some should flee (They are nomadic, after all). They should be able to go to war against isolated individual border counties for tribute without territorial accession and without starting a Russian-Turkic apocalypse. They shouldn't spread their religion (In fact, the whole area should be religion-neutral as far as they are concerned.).

If you plan on incorporating Steppe events, I'll move it over to VIET thread instead of hijacking. Nice idea in OP's post, though. Too bad there wasn't a way of making them true-to-life without such a meta tactic.

CrackdToothGrin said:

If you plan on incorporating Steppe events, I'll move it over to VIET thread instead of hijacking. Nice idea in OP's post, though. Too bad there wasn't a way of making them true-to-life without such a meta tactic.

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I plan on getting to the steppe folks once I start working on my Khitan Invasion (another part of the history overlooked by PI - the Khitan occupied the same area as the Kara-Khanids, but only the latter are featured in-game; guess PI didn't want to have to deal with the mess of having a heavily Sinicized dynasty in CKII), so feel free to share your ideas as always. I'm just hoping that the Old Gods mechanics will better simulate the nomads overall so we modders can work on improving whatever.