Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Suggestion: Rurik's culture

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Crusader Kings II 69869 Bug Reports 19707 User Modifications 10588 Suggestions 5969 Tech Support 6362 After Action Reports
Status
Not open for further replies.
Tu quoque won't get you anywhere.
Click to expand...

So you can say "oh my, russians are evil, let's just ignore anything they say"? It's sounds like yours "xenophobia".

Nobody tries to convince everyone that anti-norse theories are right. There is not enough evidence. I'm okay with any nationality delevopers will pick, because they just need to pick one.

But position like ''let's ignore all russian theories because they are russian and propaganda" looks very ugly to me.
 
Ratstranger said:
So you can say "oh my, russians are evil, let's just ignore anything they say"? It's sounds like yours "xenophobia".

Nobody tries to convince everyone that anti-norse theories are right. There is not enough evidence. I'm okay with any nationality delevopers will pick, because they just need to pick one.

But position like ''let's ignore all russian theories because they are russian and propaganda" looks very ugly to me.
Click to expand...

I actually took a couple of years of Russian in school and quite like the place, FYI. I just really, really don't get the reactionary "anyone but those disgusting SWEDES!" attitude. It feels very much like it's still stuck in the competitive 17th-18th centuries.

Like I've said multiple times: Even if he was from here I would consider it a part of Russian history, not Swedish, just as I consider the Normans part of Anglo-French history. They didn't try to assimilate Russia (and would likely not have been as long-lasting of a dynasty if they did), they just ruled it as foreign rulers for a bit and eventually assimilated into the general populace. Hardly strange for the upper classes. There's a "German" lineage on the British throne right now, after all... But no one would consider her that. And a French one on ours.

Calanctus said:
Neither was Swedish.
Click to expand...

Because Swedish didn't exist as a distinct culture yet. Doesn't mean he wasn't from a border-region of Svealand.
 
Last edited:
Ratstranger said:
So you can say "oh my, russians are evil, let's just ignore anything they say"? It's sounds like yours "xenophobia".

Nobody tries to convince everyone that anti-norse theories are right. There is not enough evidence. I'm okay with any nationality delevopers will pick, because they just need to pick one.

But position like ''let's ignore all russian theories because they are russian and propaganda" looks very ugly to me.
Click to expand...

Brilliant strawman you have there.
"Tu quoque" is a neutral claim.

Calanctus said:
Neither was Swedish.
Click to expand...

Yes, but Nuril said it well.
 
DamianGrim said:
He wasn't a Swede either. As I said earlier, we need more cultures and melting pots in new start date. ;)
And a small OT, will there be finally Sicilian culture melting pot in the base game? Why there is even Kingdom of Sicily without such culture...
Click to expand...

Whilst I am not going to argue on if he Rurik was Swedish, Slavic or even Finnish, I am going to say that we really need more cultures and melting pots. In the new starting date there won't even be such a concept as "Russian, Swedish" and so on... Hell, there isn't even "Finnish", since that is just the title of the Finnic tribe that lived around Turku (Åbo) and as such gained quite a bit of power through their Norse allegiance. Finnish characters need cultures such as "Tavastian, Karelian, Kven" and so on. This goes double for Russians and others who will appear under some conditions. :)
 
I have no prejudice against Sweden. It was just example. Name any country here :)

There are problems with norse theory in Russia not because of nationalistic beliefs. Just early russian history is very mythological. Ethemereal. Almost no sources. There is many outlandish theories about russian origin connected with Hyperborea or even Atlantis and all official history is lie, fake and make-up. Some believe in this nonsense, because they want to have some solid and substantial foundation for their history. Not because they hate swedes or germans or somebody.

Rurik story looks for them just little...unconvincing.
 
Olligarchy said:
Whilst I am not going to argue on if he Rurik was Swedish, Slavic or even Finnish, I am going to say that we really need more cultures and melting pots. In the new starting date there won't even be such a concept as "Russian, Swedish" and so on... Hell, there isn't even "Finnish", since that is just the title of the Finnic tribe that lived around Turku (Åbo) and as such gained quite a bit of power through their Norse allegiance. Finnish characters need cultures such as "Tavastian, Karelian, Kven" and so on. This goes double for Russians and others who will appear under some conditions. :)
Click to expand...

Honestly I'd rather they cut down the number of cultures instead and, rather than making melting pots for us, we get "splintering" conditions. Instead I'd rather they place more importance in Tribal loyalties, so it's a bigger deal that you're from a different Duchy/Kingdom, even if culturally pretty much identical. That'd make it a good idea to absorb smaller Kingdoms into your main one to remove maluses (consolidation of the North). The Russians and Normans are exceptions not really representative of the homeland, since that's assimilation into other groups with a bit of syncretism.
 
It's hard to deny Russian is a hybrid of Swede and Indigenous Slav when Kieven Rus was founded in the middle of the huge trade route stretching from Sweden to Constantinople
 
telegraph said:
If you are implying that in pagan world the matter of religion is less important then for christian - I must say that you wrong. Romans wiped celtic dieties out. Greek did the same for Parthians and Egyptians. Vanquisher always brings his gods to the vanquished. Not the other way around.
Click to expand...

Utter nonsense. Romans fought with druids for mostly political reasons. Generally, they suppress other religions provided their were properly antique (newly created cults were viewed as suspicious). Greeks didn't destroy Egyptian religion - in fact syncretic cults appeared (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis). Lagides presented themselves as legit Pharaohs to the native population. In Mesopotamia, Seleucids left Babylon to be largely self-governed by the Priests of Marduk.

There are problems with norse theory in Russia not because of nationalistic beliefs.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but this whole threads reads like a nationalist butthurt.
 
I disagree. All pre-Christian rulers (Olga is an exception in religion, but not in culture) should be Norse by religion and Scandinavian\Norse by culture. Culture shift occured during Vladimir I of Kiev, who converted Rus to Orthodox Christianity. Making first Rurikovich kings and princes Russian is like Making king of England in 1066 English, instead of Anglo-Saxon.
 
The anti-normanist theories here appear to be affirming the consequent, cherry-picking data and heavily biased. I lend my support to the Normanists, and also point out that the Russian Wikipedia is more susceptible to bias and English Wikipedia is a marginally better source.
 
Claim other opinions as a butthurt the thread.

Nuril said:
I'd rather not base development on something popularized via Stalinist propaganda appealing to Russian xenophobia.
Click to expand...
Oh boy, Russian xenophobia. So you claim that the whole nation is xenophobic?

Nuril said:
Well, something is clearly up when one nation, known for nationalistic sentiment, uniquely spends it's opening paragraph going on about "Normanists".
Click to expand...
One nation, known for nationalistic sentiment, huh? Nuril, known for his russophobic sentiments. Call me butthurt or whatever but this tone is unacceptable. Either you apologize or provide facts about Russian xenophobia and nationalistic sentiments.

And I wholeheartedly agree with the Normanist theory. And Russian melting pot sounds wonderful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom
Back