Just what does the word "empire" mean?? (ck2)

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Satori18

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Hi, This post is related to the on going debate as to whether or not there should be more than two empires within crusader kings 2. I've seen a lot of people on these forums claiming that the ONLY empires that should exist within the world of CK2 are the Holy Roman Empire + the Byzantine Empire. These people claim that the word "emperor" and "empire" is in some way related to Rome and that the only way someone can claim to be an Emperor is if they have some strong links to the old Roman Empire. I thought this was strange as I had always thought of an empire being like a huge kingdom, or government that rules over multiple kingdoms. I looked up the dictionary definition and it seems to say some vague definition along those lines. But no apparently this was all WRONG. and the idea of an empire of Britannia or an Empire of Russia etc is insane and wrong due to the fact that they have no connection to the roman empire.

But I've been doing some research on Japanese History, for my History coursework. And it seems that both Japan and China were empires. Here is a list of the history of the Japanese Emperors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_monarchs . China was also considered and "empire" starting with the first Emperor: Qin Shi Huang. I don't think I need to tell anyone reading this that Qin Shi Huang had NO connection to the Roman Empire whatsoever. So yeah.. I kept seeing the word "emperor" throughout my study of Japanese history and thought I would make a post. It's seems to me that these people who are raging claiming that to be an emperor you must be in some sense "Roman" might not actually know what they are talking about. :S It seems that the word "Emperor" and "Empire" as we commonly use them in English may have COME FROM the Latin word (as much of our language does) and is therefore causing confusion for some people.

I'm no historian though and I would be interested to see what people have to say in response to this post. Please no RAGING about any ignorance I may have displayed in this post. :<
 
It's seems to me that these people who are raging claiming that to be an emperor you must be in some sense "Roman" might not actually know what they are talking about.
I wouldn't quite go that far, but I do think they're going too far.

Consider this analogy. There's a country in Latin America whose full official title, translated into English, is the United States of Mexico. But if I asked you, "What's the capital of the United States?" you're probably not going to answer "Mexico City", are you? The United States of America is large enough and powerful enough and prestigious enough to have staked a claim to that abbreviated name.

In the Middle Ages, the same was true about the word 'empire'. If you just said, "The Empire" with no qualification, everyone knew you meant the Roman Empire, or its German and Greek successors. The Emperors and their supporters were very jealous of their status, and calling yourself an 'emperor' or your kingdom an 'empire' would be seen as a challenge, or even as hubris. You were claiming equal power and prestige to the glory of Rome, and that was an insult.

However, it didn't stop people doing it. The people raging against the ability to create your own Empire in CK2 miss the fact that real people during the Middle Ages sometime did exactly that themselves. The Anglo-Saxon kings of England called themselves 'Emperors of Britain' after they forced the kings of Wales and Scotland into vassalage; certain rulers who managed to subdue all the Christian Spanish kings called themselves the 'Emperors of all Spain'. Those titles weren't used for more than a few generations and then fell into disuse, and so are mostly just footnotes in the history books; but they were real while they lasted - and of course in a game of CK2, you can found an empire that flourishes instead of collapsing again .

As for the title itself, the Romans after Augustus gave their ruler the title Emperor (imperator) which until then had never been used for a head of state. (It means 'commander-in-chief' or 'general' originally). Then the ruler of Persia, the Shahanshah, insisted that treaties written in Latin should translate the world 'shahanshah' as 'imperator', to emphasise that he was of equal rank and status to the Roman emperor. This was done, and so the word 'Emperor' was extended to mean 'Any ruler whose power and prestige is equal to that of the Roman Emperor'. That's the sense in which it's used for countries like Japan and China.

During the Middle Ages, this meaning developed further under the influence of feudal theory. There was a hierarchy of status, with the Emperor at the top, then king and dukes and marquesses and counts and barons and knights. Some emperors - both the Roman and the Constantinopolitan ones - started talking about theories of universal empire; that by right of their status all other kings in the world owed them homage. In order to reject this, you start seeing claims that the kingdom of England, for example, "is an empire" itself. In other words, by the late Middle Ages "empire" meant a fully sovereign state, equal in status (even if inferior in power) to any other nation in the world.

By the 18th century the definition of 'empire' had changed again: now it meant a large conglomerate state made up of many sub-kingdoms and nations under a single central rule. This is closer to the modern sense.

(Incidentally, exactly the same sort of argument arose in the Far East over the Chinese equivalent term for 'emperor', 皇帝, which in their eyes could only ever be used for the Son of Heaven. When the Japanese Emperor started using the title 天皇 in diplomatic correspondence, it caused a major international incident.)
 
I thought this was strange as I had always thought of an empire being like a huge kingdom, or government that rules over multiple kingdoms. I looked up the dictionary definition and it seems to say some vague definition along those lines.

Modern definition makes no sense in medieval European context.

But I've been doing some research on Japanese History, for my History coursework. And it seems that both Japan and China were empires.

Calling them empires is a translation convention.
 
Modern definition makes no sense in medieval European context.



Calling them empires is a translation convention.

It makes perfect sense in a medieval European context. We are looking back at it from a modern translation and thus the word we use is "empire". Claiming otherwise would be like refusing to use the word "kingdom" for most "kingdoms" as they themselves wouldn't have used THAT word.
 
However, it didn't stop people doing it. The people raging against the ability to create your own Empire in CK2 miss the fact that real people during the Middle Ages sometime did exactly that themselves. The Anglo-Saxon kings of England called themselves 'Emperors of Britain' after they forced the kings of Wales and Scotland into vassalage; certain rulers who managed to subdue all the Christian Spanish kings called themselves the 'Emperors of all Spain'. Those titles weren't used for more than a few generations and then fell into disuse, and so are mostly just footnotes in the history books; but they were real while they lasted - and of course in a game of CK2, you can found an empire that flourishes instead of collapsing again .

Well, I would note that those are not different. These Anglo-Saxons and Spanish kings proclaimed themselves inheritors of the Roman imperial title, just as the Germans and Greeks did (and lots of Greeks, even petty little thematic rulers in Cyprus, Sicily, Africa etc.). As did Bulgars, Russians, Ottomans and others. In all these cases, claims of "Emperor" was rooted in the notion of succession (however tortuous) to the Roman imperator.

But as you note, the definition of empire did morph later, into implying generically vast domains & "subjugation" of others, dissociated from its Roman root. Methinks Napoleon inagurated the fashion as "Emperor of the French". Which bred, in the 19th C., the term to be used for generic emperors and empires in that fashion (e.g. emperor of Brazil, British empire, etc.), without any Roman connection or implication.
 
The russian Emperor title bears no relation to the Roman emperor legacy. One could see such a relation with the czar title but it is tortuous to say the least. I think after 1648 at latest the ancient meaning of empire has become completely irrelevant.
 
The russian Emperor title bears no relation to the Roman emperor legacy. One could see such a relation with the czar title but it is tortuous to say the least. I think after 1648 at latest the ancient meaning of empire has become completely irrelevant.

Yes it did. Russian Tsars claimed it via Byzantium, by marriage to the daughter of the last Byz Emperor, they "inherited" the Emperor title. They famously characterized Moscow as the "Third Rome".
 
There is no link whatsoever between the Third Rome ideology and the emperor title adopted in 1721. And while there is semantic continuity between the byzantine title of Caesar and the russian title of Czar which was used since 1547, there has never been any claim to the byzantine throne associated with it. What it meant was that the ruler of Moscow now claimed rulership over all of Russia and, most importantly, over the remnants of the Golden Horde, whose rulers have always been known as "czars" in Russia. The Third Rome on the other hand is mostly a religious thing aimed at asserting independence of the Russian Orthodox church from the Patriarch of Constantinople who came under the Ottoman control at that time.
 
There is no link whatsoever between the Third Rome ideology and the emperor title adopted in 1721. And while there is semantic continuity between the byzantine title of Caesar and the russian title of Czar which was used since 1547, there has never been any claim to the byzantine throne associated with it. What it meant was that the ruler of Moscow now claimed rulership over all of Russia and, most importantly, over the remnants of the Golden Horde, whose rulers have always been known as "czars" in Russia. The Third Rome on the other hand is mostly a religious thing aimed at asserting independence of the Russian Orthodox church from the Patriarch of Constantinople who came under the Ottoman control at that time.

Well, I'm not weighing the creditability of these claims - they are all pretty tortuous. But the notion that there was a translatio imperii from Constantinople to Moscow was pretty much promoted already from the early 16th C. . It is not "no link whatsover".
 
These Anglo-Saxons and Spanish kings proclaimed themselves inheritors of the Roman imperial title, just as the Germans and Greeks did (and lots of Greeks, even petty little thematic rulers in Cyprus, Sicily, Africa etc.). As did Bulgars, Russians, Ottomans and others. In all these cases, claims of "Emperor" was rooted in the notion of succession (however tortuous) to the Roman imperator.
Really? I've not seen any evidence of anything so specific. Athelstan in 931 called himself 'basileus anglorum simul et imperator regum et nationum infra fines Britanniae commorantium' ("Emperor of the English and at the same time Emperor of the remaining kings and nations within the borders of Britannia") That seems to me to be a very specific disclaimer of any rights to imperial status in the (former) Roman Empire as a whole. He was saying that his power was limited to the island of Britain, but within those bounds he was the equal in status to both the emperor in Constantinople (basileus) and the one in Rome (imperator).

In other words, it's closer to the mediaeval definition of 'empire' I gave: an independent realm that owes no fealty or vassalage to any other earthly sovereign, but in turn is owed fealty by lesser kings.
 
Well, I'm not weighing the creditability of these claims - they are all pretty tortuous. But the notion that there was a translatio imperii from Constantinople to Moscow was pretty much promoted already from the early 16th C. . It is not "no link whatsover".

And i daresay if you were to do a 'functional comparison' of say... who Constantine would point to as a recognizable emperor, then the autocratic Tsar more than the nominal Kaiser would strike him as a successor to the office and power he held/wanted.
 
Really? I've not seen any evidence of anything so specific.

Neither have I. And don't expect to, given the paucity of evidence for anything at all in this period. I'm conjecturing by analogy with many an ambitious petty barbarian ruler in former Roman territories in Italy, Sicily, Africa, Greece, etc. to claim legal right to rule by absconding with the Roman titles and dignities. It is very rare to find evidence - but its there, occasional inscriptions and coins attesting to the existence of Berber "Emperors" in Mauretania, "Emperors" in Numidia, petty states about which we know nothing otherwise.

From the little I can connect, it seemed some form of Roman title was believed quite "essential" for barbarians overruners to claim right to rule beyond their tribes over local cities with Romanized populations. Britain had plenty of those. I don't thik it is a stretch to assume the Anglo-Saxons adopted the same practice as done elsewhere by other ambitious tribes. For all their barbarity, barbarians were quite meticulous in legal matters. And the apparatus of the prior Roman rulers was in living memory.

Keep in mind the Church was still around in Europe through much of this, and organized on Roman diocesal and provincial boundaries. Local bishops would have been in a position to suggest Roman-derived titles for barbarian chieftans to legitimize their rule over Romanized cities. After all, isn't that exactly, on a grander scale, how Pepin got his ''Patricius'' and Charlemagne his ''Imperator''? I expect much the same happened on the smaller scale in the provinces, with local bishops and local tribal rulers.

Athelstan in 931 called himself 'basileus anglorum simul et imperator regum et nationum infra fines Britanniae commorantium' ("Emperor of the English and at the same time Emperor of the remaining kings and nations within the borders of Britannia") That seems to me to be a very specific disclaimer of any rights to imperial status in the (former) Roman Empire as a whole. He was saying that his power was limited to the island of Britain, but within those bounds he was the equal in status to both the emperor in Constantinople (basileus) and the one in Rome (imperator).

Not quite how I read it. "Basileus" does not translate to emperor, but to tribal ruler, e.g. Byzantium distinguished between the titles of Basileus of the Romanii ("tribal" chief of the Roman people) and Imperator/Autokrator (a formal senatorial title assigning dictatorial powers over a geographic region - Roman empire had many "emperors", if you'll remember, assigned to different regions). True, Byzantine emperors in later years (particularly after Heraclius), used the "Basileus" more commonly than "Autokrator", but it does not linguistically translate to emperor.

You can see that same distinction in the very title you cite - with Athelstan being tribal chief (basileus) of the Angles, but "Imperator" over a prescribed geographic region, defined in this case by the Roman province of Britannia (not, you'll note, a vague dominion or an island, but the formal Latin title of a legally-defined Roman province). He dots the legal t's & i's with the codicil that it includes dictatorship over any and all barbarian peoples that might live within those provincial borders (who might otherwise imagine the imperator didn't apply to them, but only to the Romano-Britons).

In other words, it's closer to the mediaeval definition of 'empire' I gave: an independent realm that owes no fealty or vassalage to any other earthly sovereign, but in turn is owed fealty by lesser kings.

Again, not quite. While Roman imperators were absolute dictators in their assigned provinces, they are not quite legally supreme - they are notionally answerable to the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR), from whose authority they got their title. Medieval super-popes, like Innocent III, who presented themselves as inheriting and channeling the power of SPQR, repeatedly asserted their legal right, as "makers" of emperors, as legally superior to emperors and being owed fealty by them - earthly fealty, not spiritual - and the supreme territorial authority over all of the former Roman provinces.

This theory, as you can imagine, did not go over very well with European kings. But it was prevalent, finding iitself repeatedly articulated in papal letters during the "super-pope" era (12th/13th C.)

(As a sidenote, Rome's civic badge, with the "SPQR" anagram, is not a nostalgic novelty; it is derived from the papal banners used throughout the Middle Ages, as a reminder and assertion of the pope's ultimate and supreme territorial authority, above the emperor.)

e.g. SPQR banner in 1300 Rome:
JubileeOf1300InRome.jpg
 
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Additional note on emperor/kings hierarchy:

"Kings" and "Emperors" have no legal connection. They come from separate hierarchies, that were only merged in the 10th/11th C.

Kings (''rex'') are supreme tribal titles - King of the Franks, King of the Lombards, King of the Angles, etc. They operate on a different parallel hierarchy, without any connection to the Roman dignities. A king is a king if he is acclaimed by his tribal chiefs, by tribal law and tradition, and (if you want) anointed/ratified by God. They may live inside or outside the Roman provinces. And if within, then they owe "obedience" (I'm not going to say fealty, because its not hierarchally linked) to the Roman governor, the Imperator of the province, who has "allowed" the tribe to reside there. The king - and his kingdom, that is, his people and his people alone - are thus merely "guests" of the Roman emperor, and they "behave" and "obey" their hosts as any good guest should. But they remain outside the hierarchy.

A king only enters the Roman hierarchy by being assigned to rule a specific geographic region by the Imperator, effectively giving them authority to rule beyond his tribe and over the resident Romanized populations and any other peoples within that geographic area. So kings enter the imperial hierarchy via a Roman title like Dux. So a "King of the Bavarians" (people) becomes "Duke of Bavaria" (area). Only now do they owe formal fealty to the Emperor, not as guests, but as subordinates in the hierarchy.

All of this, of course, is very preliminary, and morphed with time. But to be clear from the outset: a King rules a people, a Dux rules an area. A King is supreme in his own tribal hierarchy, a Dux is subordinate to an Emperor in the Roman hierarchy.

With the break-down of the Carolingian Empire, the imperial authority evaporated and the Dukes remained the only territorial rulers, without an emperor. Subsequently, they resumed election of a supreme leader among themselves, the "King" recast. The hierarchies now became confounded and mixed. The king notion is still thoroughly tribal - so they are King of the East Franks, West Franks, Middle Franks, Burgundians, Lombards, Saxons, etc. - but the electors are now geographic Dukes. You see this transition in the course of the 10th/11th C., where tribal kings will double up with Roman titles like dux (as kings of France did) and imperator (in your Athelstan case, and also in Spain), to more clearly define their level and geographic extent of authority based on the Roman hierarchy.

Eventually, as people and area merge, and Kingdoms become synonymous with areas (rather than people), the extra Roman title become superfluous, and you simply end up with Kings & Dukes together in the same linear hierarchy.

Only in central Europe, does it get tricky, because the pope revived SPQR to "make" an emperor in the 10th C. - Otto. Now, Otto was already King of the East Franks and Lombards - supreme ruler, didn't really need any more authority than that. The elective power of the constituent dukes, to rule in those dominions was sufficient. But he wanted authority over the city of Rome itself, a dominion which lay outside the kingdom of the Lombards.

(why did he want to add Rome? Simple reason: he who controls the city of Rome, controls the pope, he who controls the pope, controls the church, and thus appointments of bishops and church lands in his own dominions. Very attractive for any king, but especially for Otto, who was heavy into deploying bishops to undermine his feudal lords.)

So while British and Spanish imperator titles fall away out of irrelevance, the imperator title lingers in the "Holy Roman Empire" because it still has a slight relevance (controlling Rome). But there is no subordination of kings here either. What we loosely call the HRE is not quite an empire in the modern sense, and definitely not in the khan-of-khans sense. The HRE was and would always remain three distinct kingdoms - the kingdoms of the East Franks, Lombards and Burgundians - each one of which has their own king, who just happens by chance and custom, to usually be the same person. The geographic area of each of the three kingdoms is defined by the areas of the constituent dukes, and not the emperor. They are not united "under an emperor", but rather are distinct and fully sovereign under their own supreme king - a king who by chance may or may not be king of the two other kingdoms.

So the "HRE" is not an empire, but three separate and equal kingdoms, three separate elections by three separate sets of dukes, three seperate coronations with their own distinct rules, three separate chancellors with three separate seals.

The title of "emperor" adds nothing to his authority there. It does not "bring the kingdoms together". The three elections and three coronations of the same man bring them them together. Emperor is a fourth feather, a fourth election and fourth coronation, giving the same man, by chance, authority over something else: Rome itself.

In other words, if the pope wanted to crown another man emperor, say, the King of France (as he contemplated occasionally), he could. And that would not implicate by one iota the authority of the King of Germany-Lombardy-Burgundy over Germany, Lombardy and Burgundy. The new French "Holy Roman Emperor" would now rule over Rome, but have zero, absolutely zero, authority over Germany, Lombardy and Burgundy.

So the Emperor is not the supreme ruler of Germany. The King of the Germans is - that is, the king that is elected by German dukes, crowned in Aachen by the Archbishop of Mainz. There is no title above him. The Emperor is not the supreme ruler of Italy either. The King of the Lombards is, elected by Lombard dukes, crowned in Pavia by the Archbishop of Milan. And in Burgundy, the supreme ruler is the King of the Burgundians, elected by Burgundian dukes, crowned in Arles by the Archbishop of Arles.

So what is the Holy Roman Emperor? The Holy Roman Emperor is the supreme ruler of Rome, elected by the Senate and People of Rome, and crowned by the Pope at St. Peter's in the Vatican. It adds practically nothing - geographically, he gains the Papal States, authoritatively nothing at all. Being "Emperor", adding this fourth feather in his cap, makes him no more supreme in Germany, Lombardy or Burgundy than he was before. Imperator does not add to his rule there. It does give him some extra pizzaz to his name, allowing him to be first in line by protocol in international functions. And he can dangle his fancy inspirational title before fellow kings, and get into pointless arguments with the pope about who is more grand. But he doesn't rule over kings.

With one exception: Bohemia. This is because when the territorial extent of the HRE was finalized (by Conrad the Salian, in the 1030s), Bohemia was a constituent duchy of the Kingdom of Germany. Later on, the Duke of Bohemia was elevated in title to King of Bohemia as a courtesy title to flatter a big and troublesome duke with ambitions to the east, who wanted a title to match his eastern neighbors, those dang Hungarian and Polish kings. But it remained constitutionally still a constituent part of the Kingdom of Germany, participating in the election of the German king.

As far as I know, that is the only king which was ever subordinate to a Holy Roman Emperor.
 
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Very interesting post, though I may want to add a small bit about the dukes. They could be tribal too, or at least the (military) leaders of the tribes, which didn't have kings were referred to as dukes too. And the original stem dukes in the kingdom of the Eastern Franks have tribal origins too. In fact by the time CK2 starts these were still in a transition towards purely territorial and titular (so having the rank of a duke without a real territorial increase). An example is the dispute between the count of Leuven and count of Limburg regarding, who would be duke of Lower Lorraine, the count of Leuven prevailed (though they would later be made territorial dukes of Brabant and only titular duke of Lower Lorraine (Lothier)), but the ruler of Limburg was allowed the use of the title duke of Limburg.

Another element regarding Bohemia was that Bohemia was the Czech 'stem duchy' and not one of the German stem duchies. You're right that Bohemia did remain a part of the realm/empire (partly caused by translation the term Reich into English, which is broader than the more specific Kaiserreich (which is an empire/realm ruled by an emperor)). Furthermore before the royal title of the ruler of Bohemia became hereditary, some dukes were already granted a personal title of king by the emperor. An afterwards Bohemia became to use a modern term an autonomous region in the empire.
 
Arguably Boleslaw I of Poland?

Arguably since he promptly died and his successor contested the point and soon rendered the question of the Polish crown itself moot.

I consider Conrad the Salian as the "founder" of the HRE, the "finalizer" of the borders of the kingdoms of Germany, Lombardy and Burgundy, the first to refer to lands of the three together as Romanum imperium, that would remain in place thereafter. Most importantly Conrad was the first to unambiguously articulate and successfully press the legal point that a Kingdom is defined by land, not people, and that it has a legal existence independent of the person of the king, i.e. that it not dissolved in interregnums and "recreated" every election, that a duchy cannot "switch kingdoms" simply by a disappointed duke swearing allegiance to another neighboring king, or participating in a different election.

Poland slipped the leash just in the nick of time. Polish kings did become subordinate to Germany for a spell during the Ottonian period, during which they were Dukes of Poland (not kings). But after having successfully fought off the Germans, the supreme title "King of Poland" title was revived in 1025, granted not by the grace of a German king or emperor, but by election to the title created and granted by the Polish nobility, crowned by the Archbishop of Gniezno. So, unlike Bohemia, Poland "defined itself out" of Germany just before Conrad the Salian came in and "finalized" the constitution of the HRE.

(Additionally, as gone over in the Bishopric of Prague thread, unlike Bohemia, Poland successfully secured ecclesiastical independence from Germany before this - at a time when spiritual borders and political borders were interpreted interchangeably. Prague was spiritually under Mainz, the Metropolitan and Chancellor of Germany, while the Polish dioceses were independent. It would have been a pretty hefty task for Germans to construct a legal basis to claim or justify dragging Poland back in.)

So, in a nutshell: close, but no cigar. Poland could not be said to be a kingdom under an emperor, because it was a duchy when it was, and was an independent kingdom, no longer a constituent part of Germany, when Germany and the HRE were "created".
 
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Very interesting post, though I may want to add a small bit about the dukes. They could be tribal too, or at least the (military) leaders of the tribes, which didn't have kings were referred to as dukes too.

I am not familiar with any examples of that. Can you clarify?

I know the Lombards had dukes from very early on, but these were not "people" titles, they were land titles created during the conquest of Italy, assigning land areas to military clans ("faras").

Here's a quick roster: the 6th C. Lombard dukes were referred to as the dukes of Forum Julii (Friuli), Trent, Spoleto, Benevento, Verona, Bergamo, Brescia, Milan, Turin, Pavia in the first wave, then the very shortly after, as the conquest deepened, emerge the Dukes of Chiusi, Alba Pompeia, Asti, Ivrea, Novara, Isola San Giuliano/Como, Lodi, Cremona, Tortona, Piacenza, Parma, Reggio, Modena, Mantua, Brescello, Vicenza, Treviso, Altino, Feltre, Belluno, Ceneda, Lucca, Florence, Perugia, Fermo and Rimini.

Notice that all are city names, all (or nearly all) of which have resident bishops. From what I understand, the Lombard dukes themselves did not live in those cities, but in rural clan-based fortresses. Nonetheless, it seems apparent each duke is being assigned an urban Romano-Italian population, organized by the existing Roman land boundaries of church dioceses. I have little doubt (but again, no concrete evidence) that these ducal titles were not Lombard military titles (like '"Gastald" might have been), but overtly Roman titles probably suggested by the resident bishops to enable the Lombards to take over the Roman legal and administrative apparatus to govern the Romano-Italian populations within their regimental fiefs.

(And if the Lombards' Roman successorial pretensions are not sufficiently apparent, remember the first elected Lombard king Authari officially took up the name "Flavius"),

And the original stem dukes in the kingdom of the Eastern Franks have tribal origins too.

True. But you must be careful. Practically most big successor states of the Franks - duchies and kingdoms - have tribal names rather than Roman names. The major reason is because many of these post-Carolingian duchies didn't ever have Roman names as they were never part of the Roman empire. I suppose many of the westerly ones could have used Church provincial names which maintained Roman legacy (Germania, Gallia, Belgica, Raetia, etc.), they nonetheless opted instead for tribal France, Franconia, Burgundy, Swabia/Alemannia, Lotharingia, Normandy, Britanny, etc. Only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Aquitaine and Tuscany (although it alternated with Lucca), and, at a stretch, Septimania (but that alternated with Gothia) and Italia (alternating with Lombardia).

But Roman legacy names disappeared in good part because of the Carolingian administrative reforms. Charlemagne didn't trust large lords, and, when given the opportunity, broke up all large territories into small counties designated by local area names. The exception were the "marches" and family sub-kingdoms, which were only reluctantly cobbled to facilitate frontier defenses (which is why Aquitainia, Tuscia, Italia & Septimania linger). But for the rest, when the counties re-coalesced into duchies in the late 9th, they weren't beholden to any legacy, and free to choose whatever name they wanted - and many opted to go for their more recent, natural tribal names.

It was natural, because the Carolingian imperium was a fiction; it was really always a Frankish kingdom - of Frankish tribesmen, for Frankish tribesman, forcibly sitting on top of a lot of other subjugated tribes - Lombards, Burgundians, Alemanni, Saxons, Thuringians, etc. - which, in turn, were just military castes sitting on top of a practically enslaved population of Romano-serfs.

And even this must be qualified, because by the 10th C., many (most?) of the so-called Lombard, Saxon, Bavarian, etc. lords and military men were themselves of high Frankish race, the great lords and garrisons of the original tribal stock having been replaced by immigrant Franks during Carolingian times. The original tribesmen by now were either assimilated into the Franks, or fell into common poverty and assimilated into Romano-X pops, or were enslaved and exterminated directly. Little remained of the old tribes themselves, their old racial and clan identity was dissolved; but regional, territorial identity remained, or rather was created, using the old tribal names. The Duke of Bavaria could hardly know which of the men-at-arms in his district were "true" original Bavarians - possibly none. But they are all "Bavarians" now in the brave new duchy.

Why adopt the name of a defeated, lost tribe for yourself? Because that it is how the region was always informally known in Frankish military circles. Frankish lords and garrisons assigned to the east were to subjugate and control the Bavarians, ergo that area was always known as "Bavaria" among the military men, regardless of what the emperor or church or official documents said; those assigned to garrison the north were to control the Saxons, ergo, the area was "Saxony". And so on.

So, yes, there were tribal remnants, but the creation of the duchies was not a tribal resurrection. It was a carving up of military districts by regional (mostly) Frankish strongmen. He was a Dux, a military lord and governor of a geographic area, ruling over local Franks, Bavarians, Romano-Raetians and Carantanian Slavs. He was not a Rex, he was not a tribal chief of a defeated, broken, subjugated tribe that practically no longer existed, and probably wasn't even his own.

In fact by the time CK2 starts these were still in a transition towards purely territorial and titular (so having the rank of a duke without a real territorial increase). An example is the dispute between the count of Leuven and count of Limburg regarding, who would be duke of Lower Lorraine, the count of Leuven prevailed (though they would later be made territorial dukes of Brabant and only titular duke of Lower Lorraine (Lothier)), but the ruler of Limburg was allowed the use of the title duke of Limburg.

I've learned there's little in the entire Middle Ages more complicated to sort through than the Low Countries. :D

But I disagree. There is no such thing as a "duke" without territory. Duke is a territorial office by definition - even if the territory is has a tribal name rather than a Roman legacy one, the title itself is territorial not tribal. A duke rules everyone in his duchy, not merely his tribesmen (as a "king" would have done).

A Duke without territoral Duchy is as anomalous as a Margrave without a territorial March (of which I can only think of one - the Margrave of Baden, but he once had a march -Verona - and was allowed to keep the dignity as a courtesy after losing it.) In fact, at least in Italy, all post-Carolingian coalescing "duchies" actually started off designating themselves as "Marches" (March of Lombardy, March of Tuscany, March of Spoleto, etc.)

What happened to Limburg was along the lines as what happened to Baden - a courtesy, raising Limburg title to ducal as compensation for their earlier loss of Duchy of LL. It is still territorially defined - the "new" Ducal territory is simply the boundaries of the old County of Limburg.


Another element regarding Bohemia was that Bohemia was the Czech 'stem duchy' and not one of the German stem duchies. You're right that Bohemia did remain a part of the realm/empire (partly caused by translation the term Reich into English, which is broader than the more specific Kaiserreich (which is an empire/realm ruled by an emperor)). Furthermore before the royal title of the ruler of Bohemia became hereditary, some dukes were already granted a personal title of king by the emperor. An afterwards Bohemia became to use a modern term an autonomous region in the empire.

Actually, it was. Arnulf of Carinthia extracted Bohemia from the crumbling Moravian state and formally turned it into a vassal German duchy at the Diet of Augsburg in 895. The hold was occasionally slippery, but it was definitively subdued and integrated into Germany in 1002. It was most definitely a stem duchy of Conrad's definitive Kingdom of Germany.

The personal title of king was allowed to Bohemian duke only twice, AFAIK, in 1158 to Vladislaus II (until his death) and in 1198 to Ottokar I (permanently), both times as courtesies granted by the German monarch, not by the Bohemian estates. I am not aware of prior usages. Yes, it did have a great autonomy.

But Bohemia is still the exception to the rule. And a little deceptive. While it may seem like a king subordinate to an emperor, it is in fact a duchy subordinate to a king. The Kingdom of Bohemia never acquired the independent and equal status to Germany, as Burgundy and Lombardy had, it was not a "fourth kingdom" of the HRE.
 
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In other words, it's closer to the mediaeval definition of 'empire' I gave: an independent realm that owes no fealty or vassalage to any other earthly sovereign, but in turn is owed fealty by lesser kings.

I think there were also connotations about the monarch's relationship with the Papacy. That's why Henry VIII called the English crown 'imperial' in the Act of Supremacy.