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Yes, this is doable.
But it seems the engine requires a minimum of "personality-yes" traits to distribute at the beginning of the game.
So what happens is - the more requirements you apply for a few traits (like "kind" having the opposites "wroth", "deceitful", "envious", "cruel" and so on) - the more likely it is to get characters with the same set of traits (I mean, the traits that have less opposites)...

Might require some testing. But I'm not too hopeful...:sad:
 
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As for creating new courtiers...well, it's like picking a random person off the street, the chances are infinite.

That's not what the tooltip implies, at least not for the women - there it's clear my character found some women he or she noticed for some reason (presumably, a useful or positive trait; or at least because she had red hair and deep green eyes and didn't smell of manure) among a number of them. It's not "a random person", it's "the best pick out of a dozen or more, given what the character could find out about them in the time."
 
Why ambitious? agree with the rest (concerning opposites of kind)

As predicted.

BTW Ash001 I have been testing these... I can conclusively say that characters with pre-assigned stats that are opposites will keep both the opposites at game start. Thats about all i can conclusively say unfortunately :(

Spawning/inviting new characters continued to get weird results. I had both kind and envious... but still not 100% sure exactly how these are generated on characters. Will keep testing. Lifestyle traits with opposites crashed.
 
BTW Ash001 I have been testing these... I can conclusively say that characters with pre-assigned stats that are opposites will keep both the opposites at game start. Thats about all i can conclusively say unfortunately :(


Spawning/inviting new characters continued to get weird results. I had both kind and envious... but still not 100% sure exactly how these are generated on characters. Will keep testing.

New characters - Haven't had a chance to test them, so looking forward to hearing more about your experimenting.

Again, my issue with making some traits have several opposites (like "kind" vs "cruel" "envious" "wroth" "greedy") is that the engine will still pick random traits at the beginning so if "kind" is too restricted because of the number of opposite traits, the engine will pick more "trusting" or whatever other trait with less restrictions.
So you'll get more characters with these traits ("trusting", for instance) and less "kind" ones - could start unbalancing the game, maybe?


Lifestyle traits with opposites crashed.
You mean putting "impaler" against "kind" for instance, right?
Yeah, I thought so, the idea of opposites seems to work between traits of the same group...
Personality or Lifestyle or Congenital, as long as they're not mixed/matched against each other.
 
Perhaps the characters with opposite traits have bipolar disorder or some other mental disorder. At least that is the way I imagine it when playing. You never know which trait will show up.
 
Going back to the main points, I guess I agree in part and disagree in part.

1) On the nonsensical mixture of traits that are randomly assigned, I agree that there should be some combinations that aren't possible, and that there probably should be more blocked pairings than there currently are. I'm not a modder, but it sounds from the comments that there's a vehicle now to define any number of opposite traits. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) That seems to suggest that the main question is whether the vanilla game should prevent more combinations. I'm not so sure. People are vastly complex, and often have wildly different (even warring) character traits. Maybe add a few more prohibited opposites -- to use one example, "kind impaler" does seem a bit difficult to imagine.

2) On the large number of these traits, I disagree completely. I like that my characters are complex, and that their ability to amass additional traits tends to make them more complex as their lives evolve. More traits also mean more dimensions to character interactions. With a limited number of traits, relationship scores will tend to be flatter because there are fewer possibilities for two different characters to interact poorly. For example, if I am cynical, I'll get a -10 relationship with characters who are zealous. If each character is limited to four or five traits, there will be a lot fewer chances that those negative reactions (or positive reactions) will pop up. That will tend to flatten all of the characters' relationship scores, which to me is less interesting.
 
2) On the large number of these traits, I disagree completely. I like that my characters are complex, and that their ability to amass additional traits tends to make them more complex as their lives evolve. More traits also mean more dimensions to character interactions. With a limited number of traits, relationship scores will tend to be flatter because there are fewer possibilities for two different characters to interact poorly. For example, if I am cynical, I'll get a -10 relationship with characters who are zealous. If each character is limited to four or five traits, there will be a lot fewer chances that those negative reactions (or positive reactions) will pop up. That will tend to flatten all of the characters' relationship scores, which to me is less interesting.

On player's character it is fine, IMO, but every character having ten trait rainbows, making it extremely hard to see what the character is really about is the problem.
 
A good way of looking to see what is happening with randomly generated characters is going William who starts the game with 900 gold, and can spawn a lot of new Debutants or nobles at only 5 gold a pop. I just had a character with the content trait twice (attached) is this a vanilla quirk? Maybe it was because an 'opposite' was removed and it glitched a new trait which was a duplicate? If this is the case there is no point continuing along with this opposites "fix" I am looking at. So I would be interested to hear if this is happens to people in unmodded games.

Lifestyle opposites do seem to be able to be assigned as opposites (but it didnt when I was also combining education traits).

Its also important to make each opposite the mirror of the other. By that I mean I had:

duelist = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { slothful kind humble craven weak }
slothful = { personality = yes opposites = { diligent ambitious }

I was still getting random characters with both duelist and slothful.

slothful = { personality = yes opposites = { slothful diligent ambitious }

Now it wont.

edit: damn just had a bunch more spawned characters with the same trait twice... my conclusion is that traits can only have one opposite. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong.
 

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I just had a character with the content trait twice (attached) is this a vanilla quirk?

That's one content lady. Is her "content" attitude modifier +50 or +100?
 
+100 she has the effects of the trait twice... I take it this isnt a vanilla possibility?

Never seen it in vanilla.

Some mods have the problem that their replacement Trait file lists the old vanilla traits as well as the new, modded ones. This can cause duplicate traits.
 
As predicted.

BTW Ash001 I have been testing these... I can conclusively say that characters with pre-assigned stats that are opposites will keep both the opposites at game start. Thats about all i can conclusively say unfortunately :(

Spawning/inviting new characters continued to get weird results. I had both kind and envious... but still not 100% sure exactly how these are generated on characters. Will keep testing. Lifestyle traits with opposites crashed.

He wasn't arguing against your point. He was just asking a question about your example.
 
Never seen it in vanilla.

Some mods have the problem that their replacement Trait file lists the old vanilla traits as well as the new, modded ones. This can cause duplicate traits.

Thanks Blue Emu, when I replace the original file rather than use a /mod/common/traits folder then there have been no more duplicated traits. However instead there are now characters with both polar opposites been gererated (e.g. greedy + generous, slothful + diligent).

So although its a different issue, the same effect Multiple opposites do not work.

An odd thing I noticed is that the traits.txt traits file has been changed by Paradox (presumably in 1.04c) the file in /common has been cleared and only has 1 line
# OBSOLETE
and a new folder /common/traits has been added and the file renamed to 00_traits.txt I am guessing this is the fix that they said they put in 1.04c to add back in random traits.

Here is the file I am using if anyone is interested and can help me figure this out:
Code:
############
# EDUCATION
############

# INTRIGUE OUTCOMES
amateurish_plotter = { education = yes intrigue = 1 stewardship = -1 }
flamboyant_schemer = { education = yes intrigue = 3 stewardship = -1 }
intricate_webweaver = { education = yes intrigue = 6 martial = 1 diplomacy = 1 stewardship = -1 }
elusive_shadow = { education = yes intrigue = 9 martial = 2 diplomacy = 2 stewardship = -1 }

# DIPLOMACY OUTCOMES
naive_appeaser = { education = yes diplomacy = 1 martial = -1 }
underhanded_rogue = { education = yes diplomacy = 3 martial = -1 fertility = 0.05 }
charismatic_negotiator = { education = yes diplomacy = 6 intrigue = 1 learning = 1 martial = -1 fertility = 0.05 }
grey_eminence = { education = yes diplomacy = 9 intrigue = 2 learning = 2 martial = -1 fertility = 0.1 }

# STEWARDSHIP OUTCOMES
indulgent_wastrel = { education = yes stewardship = 1 diplomacy = -1 }
thrifty_clerk = { education = yes stewardship = 3 diplomacy = -1 fertility = 0.05 }
fortune_builder = { education = yes stewardship = 6 martial = 1 learning = 1 diplomacy = -1 fertility = 0.1 }
midas_touched = { education = yes stewardship = 9 martial = 2 learning = 2 diplomacy = -1 fertility = 0.15 }

# MARTIAL OUTCOMES
misguided_warrior = { education = yes martial = 1 learning = -1 health = 0.5 }
tough_soldier = { education = yes martial = 3 learning = -1 health = 0.5 }
skilled_tactician = { education = yes martial = 6 intrigue = 1 stewardship = 1 learning = -1 health = 0.5 }
brilliant_strategist = { education = yes martial = 9 intrigue = 2 stewardship = 2 learning = -1 health = 0.5 }

# ECCLESIASTICAL OUTCOMES
detached_priest = { priest = yes education = yes learning = 1 intrigue = -1 }
martial_cleric = { priest = yes education = yes learning = 3 intrigue = -1 }
scholarly_theologian = { priest = yes education = yes learning = 6 diplomacy = 1 stewardship = 1 intrigue = -1 fertility = -0.05 }
mastermind_theologian = { priest = yes education = yes learning = 9 diplomacy = 2 stewardship = 2 intrigue = -1 fertility = -0.05 }

########################
# HEALTH - Events
########################

stressed = { is_health = yes intrigue = -1 stewardship = -1 health = -1 fertility = -0.1 }
depressed = { is_health = yes diplomacy = -1 stewardship = -1 martial = -1 intrigue = -1 health = -1 fertility = -0.05 }
lunatic = { is_health = yes vassal_opinion = -25 sex_appeal_opinion = -25 ai_rationality = -50 }
possessed = { is_health = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -25 }
ill = { is_health = yes is_illness = yes opposites =  { pneumonic } martial = -1 health = -2 fertility = -0.1 }
pneumonic = { is_health = yes is_illness = yes opposites =  { ill } diplomacy = -2 stewardship = -2 martial = -2 intrigue = -2 learning = -2 health = -4 fertility = -0.5 }
syphilitic = { is_health = yes congenital = yes is_illness = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -30 diplomacy = -1 stewardship = -1 martial = -1 intrigue = -1 learning = -1 health = -2 fertility = -0.2 }
leper = { is_health = yes is_illness = yes diplomacy = -2 health = -2 fertility = -0.2 sex_appeal_opinion = -50 vassal_opinion = -20 }
wounded = { is_health = yes opposites =  { maimed } martial = -1 health = -1 }
maimed = { is_health = yes opposites = { wounded } sex_appeal_opinion = -15 martial = -2 health = -2 }
infirm = { is_health = yes diplomacy = -3 intrigue = -3 stewardship = -3 martial = -3 learning = -3 health = -1 fertility = -0.3 ai_rationality = -10 }
incapable = { is_health = yes incapacitating = yes diplomacy = -6 intrigue = -6 stewardship = -6 martial = -6 learning = -6 health = -3 fertility = -0.3 }
drunkard = { is_health = yes stewardship = -2 same_opinion = 10 church_opinion = -10 sex_appeal_opinion = -5 ai_rationality = -5 }
has_tuberculosis = { is_epidemic = yes is_illness = yes health = -2 }
has_typhoid_fever = { is_epidemic = yes is_illness = yes health = -3 }
has_typhus = { is_epidemic = yes is_illness = yes health = -3 }
has_bubonic_plague = { is_epidemic = yes is_illness = yes health = -7 }
has_measles = { is_epidemic = yes is_illness = yes health = -2 }
has_small_pox = { is_epidemic = yes is_illness = yes health = -3 }

############################
# SOFT STATUS - Undecided
############################

crusader = { martial = 2 church_opinion = 25 same_opinion = 30 }

############################
# HARD STATUS - DO NOT ADD OR REMOVE!
############################

bastard = { diplomacy = -1 }
twin = { twin_opinion = 30 }
legit_bastard = { diplomacy = -1 }
pregnant = { spouse_opinion = 25 }
excommunicated = { diplomacy = -5 same_religion_opinion = -30 }
kinslayer = { diplomacy = -3 dynasty_opinion = -25 }
homosexual = { sex_appeal_opinion = 30 vassal_opinion = -10 fertility = -0.15 }

#####################
# POSSIBLY CONGENITAL
#####################

clubfooted = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -10 martial = -1 }
harelip = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -10 diplomacy = -1 }
hunchback = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -30 vassal_opinion = -5 martial = -1 }
lisp = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -5 diplomacy = -1 }
stutter = { congenital = yes birth = yes diplomacy = -1 }
fair = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = 30 opposites = { ugly } diplomacy = 1 }
ugly = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -20 opposites = { fair } diplomacy = -1 }
dwarf = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -30 martial = -1 }
genius = { congenital = yes birth = yes opposites = { imbecile slow quick } diplomacy = 2 intrigue = 2 stewardship = 2 martial = 2 learning = 2 ai_rationality = 30 vassal_opinion = 5 }
quick = { congenital = yes birth = yes opposites = { imbecile slow genius } diplomacy = 1 intrigue = 1 stewardship = 1 martial = 1 learning = 1 ai_rationality = 15 }
slow = { congenital = yes birth = yes opposites = { imbecile quick genius } diplomacy = -1 intrigue = -1 stewardship = -1 martial = -1 learning = -1 ai_rationality = -15 }
imbecile = { congenital = yes birth = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -30 opposites = { slow quick genius } diplomacy = -2 intrigue = -2 stewardship = -2 martial = -2 learning = -2 ai_rationality = -30 vassal_opinion = -10 }
inbred = { inbred = yes congenital = yes sex_appeal_opinion = -30 fertility = -0.3 health = -1.5 diplomacy = -3 intrigue = -3 stewardship = -3 martial = -3 learning = -3 vassal_opinion = -20 ai_rationality = -20 }
strong = { congenital = yes birth = yes opposites = { weak } diplomacy = 1 martial = 2 health = 2 fertility = 0.1 sex_appeal_opinion = 10 vassal_opinion = 10 }
weak = { congenital = yes birth = yes opposites = { strong } health = -1.0 fertility = -0.05 martial = -1 sex_appeal_opinion = -10 vassal_opinion = -10 }

################################################
# LIFESTYLE - Events - only 1 lifestyle (adult)
################################################

celibate = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { hedonist lustful chaste greedy slothful wroth proud deceitful gregarious ambitious } fertility = -10.0 church_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 same_opinion = 10 monthly_character_piety = 1 }
hedonist = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { celibate chaste temperate diligent patient humble content } fertility = 0.2 opposite_opinion = -5 same_opinion = 10 church_opinion = -10 monthly_character_piety = -0.5 }
scholar = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { slow imbecile slothful } learning = 2 same_opinion = 10 }
gardener = { lifestyle = yes stewardship = 2 same_opinion = 10 }
mystic = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { zealous imbecile } intrigue = 1 same_opinion = 10 }
impaler = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { temperate charitable kind humble just } intrigue = 1 same_opinion = 10 ai_honor = -15 }
duelist = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { slothful kind humble craven weak } martial = 1 same_opinion = 10 }
hunter = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { kind craven content } martial = 1 same_opinion = 10 }
poet = { lifestyle = yes diplomacy = 1 same_opinion = 10 }
falconer = { lifestyle = yes diplomacy = 1 same_opinion = 10 }

#################################################################
# PERSONALITY - Events, should happen more often during childhood
#################################################################

# THE SEVEN SINS AND VIRTUES
lustful = { personality = yes opposites = { chaste } fertility = 0.2 church_opinion = -10 monthly_character_piety = -0.25 }
chaste = { personality = yes opposites = { lustful } fertility = -0.15 church_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 monthly_character_piety = 0.5 }
gluttonous = { personality = yes opposites = { temperate } sex_appeal_opinion = -15 church_opinion = -10 stewardship = -2 }
temperate = { personality = yes opposites = { gluttonous } church_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 stewardship = 2 }
greedy = { personality = yes opposites = { charitable kind humble content } global_tax_modifier = 0.1 diplomacy = -1 ai_honor = -10 ai_ambition = 15 ai_greed = 100 }
charitable = { personality = yes opposites = { greedy cruel envious impaler } diplomacy = 3 church_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 ai_honor = 10 ai_ambition = -15 ai_greed = -100 }
slothful = { personality = yes opposites = { diligent ambitious } vassal_opinion = -10 diplomacy = -1 intrigue = -1 stewardship = -1 martial = -1 learning = -1 ai_ambition = -10 }
diligent = { personality = yes opposites = { slothful } vassal_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 diplomacy = 1 intrigue = 1 stewardship = 1 martial = 1 learning = 1 }
envious = { personality = yes opposites = { kind content charitable humble } intrigue = 2 diplomacy = -1 liege_opinion = -15 ai_honor = -10 } 
kind = { personality = yes opposites = { envious cruel wroth greedy impaler hunter } intrigue = -2 diplomacy = 2 vassal_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 ai_honor = 10 }
wroth = { personality = yes opposites = { patient kind temperate } diplomacy = -1 intrigue = -1 martial = 3 ai_rationality = -10 ai_honor = -5 }
patient = { personality = yes opposites = { wroth } diplomacy = 1 intrigue = 1 stewardship = 1 learning = 1 opposite_opinion = -10 ai_rationality = 10 }
proud = { personality = yes opposites = { humble } monthly_character_prestige = 0.5 ai_ambition = 10 }
humble = { personality = yes opposites =  { proud ambitious envious } monthly_character_piety = 1 opposite_opinion = -10 ai_ambition = -10 }

# OTHER

deceitful = { personality = yes opposites = { honest } intrigue = 3 diplomacy = -2 opposite_opinion = -10 ai_honor = -25 }
honest = { personality = yes opposites = { deceitful ambitious } intrigue = -2 diplomacy = 3 opposite_opinion = -10 ai_honor = 25 }
craven = { personality = yes opposites = { brave } vassal_opinion = -5 martial = -2 }
brave = { personality = yes opposites = { craven } vassal_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 martial = 2 }
shy = { personality = yes opposites =  { gregarious } diplomacy = -2 }
gregarious = { personality = yes opposites = { shy } sex_appeal_opinion = 5 vassal_opinion = 5 diplomacy = 2 }
ambitious = { personality = yes opposites = { content honest kind humble } intrigue = 2 stewardship = 2 diplomacy = 2 martial = 2 learning = 2 ambition_opinion = -50 ai_ambition = 40 }
content = { personality = yes opposites = { ambitious } intrigue = -1 liege_opinion = 50 monthly_character_piety = 0.5 ai_ambition = -40 }
arbitrary = { personality = yes opposites = { just } stewardship = -2 learning = -1 vassal_opinion = -10 ai_rationality = -20 ai_honor = -10 }
just = { personality = yes opposites = { arbitrary } stewardship = 2 learning = 1 vassal_opinion = 10 opposite_opinion = -10 ai_rationality = 20 ai_honor = 10 }
cynical = { personality = yes opposites = { zealous } intrigue = 2 church_opinion = -5 opposite_opinion = -10 monthly_character_piety = -0.2 ai_rationality = 10 }
zealous = { personality = yes opposites = { cynical } martial = 2 church_opinion = 10 infidel_opinion = -50 opposite_opinion = -10 monthly_character_piety = 1 ai_rationality = -10 }
paranoid = { personality = yes opposites = { trusting } intrigue = 2 diplomacy = -1 ai_honor = -10 }
trusting = { personality = yes opposites = { paranoid } intrigue = -2 diplomacy = 1 ai_honor = 10 }
cruel = { personality = yes opposites = { kind content charitable humble } intrigue = 1 diplomacy = -1 vassal_opinion = -10 ai_honor = -10 }

gah the glamorous life of a modder :cool:
 

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View attachment 50897

A good way of looking to see what is happening with randomly generated characters is going William who starts the game with 900 gold, and can spawn a lot of new Debutants or nobles at only 5 gold a pop. I just had a character with the content trait twice (attached) is this a vanilla quirk? Maybe it was because an 'opposite' was removed and it glitched a new trait which was a duplicate? If this is the case there is no point continuing along with this opposites "fix" I am looking at. So I would be interested to hear if this is happens to people in unmodded games.

Lifestyle opposites do seem to be able to be assigned as opposites (but it didnt when I was also combining education traits).

Its also important to make each opposite the mirror of the other. By that I mean I had:

duelist = { lifestyle = yes opposites = { slothful kind humble craven weak }
slothful = { personality = yes opposites = { diligent ambitious }

I was still getting random characters with both duelist and slothful.

slothful = { personality = yes opposites = { slothful diligent ambitious }

Now it wont.

edit: damn just had a bunch more spawned characters with the same trait twice... my conclusion is that traits can only have one opposite. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong.

Hmm, I'm not sure I follow your conclusion. Traits can have more than one opposite, it happens even in vanilla - take a look at "genius" for instance (3 opposites for the trait).

What I guess is happening is that the engine is forcing the character to have at least 4 "personality-yes" traits. If there are too many restrictions (like all traits have many opposites), the engine might feels "forced" to repeat traits... Makes any sense?
 
Hmm, I'm not sure I follow your conclusion. Traits can have more than one opposite, it happens even in vanilla - take a look at "genius" for instance (3 opposites for the trait).

What I guess is happening is that the engine is forcing the character to have at least 4 "personality-yes" traits. If there are too many restrictions (like all traits have many opposites), the engine might feels "forced" to repeat traits... Makes any sense?

Well you can see from the file I posted above there are not really very many multiple opposites, certainly not enough in number that would force the engine to have to repeat some.. Still I havent heard any reports of anyone having a genius imbercile in vanilla... so im pretty much stumped and have a headache now.

EDIT: Some more testing using that code above I am getting characters with duplicates of the same trait AND opposites... i give up
 
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Hey Grell, mind if I send you a PM? It seems you inbox is full...
Want to check something with you.

Of course (have cleaned out my inbox).

Looking over the 1.04c patch notes I think we are just going to have to live with all characters having a lot of traits:
- Traits are now read from multiple files, facilitating modding
- Fixed an issue with historical characters not getting some random traits at start
- The game will now also auto-generate an appropriate number of traits for children with not enough scripted traits

The first one must be their clearing the /traits.txt file and making a new 00_traits.txt I still havent figured out how this facilitates modding.
The last point might mean even if I do somehow manage to prevent starting characters getting a lot of traits the game is hardcoded to auto-generate extra traits for each new generation. Meaning my intention to reduce the amounts of traits characters are getting is futile.

I really dont agree with their game design goal of having an average of 6 or 7 traits on every character. They seem to be taking a lot of steps to keep it high too :(
 
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