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It's the first Thursday of a new month, and the stars just happen to be exactly right for a new entry in the Crusader Kings II developer diary! God willing, it will be an enlightening one. Yes, my friends, it is time to get serious and talk about religion, and, being a game about medieval times, religion obviously plays a huge part.

There are three groups of religions in CKII: Christian, Muslim and Pagan. Each group encompasses the main religions (e.g. Catholic and Orthodox) and their heresies (Waldensian, Bogomilist, etc.) Now, the specific religions have certain characteristics that set them apart from each other. For example, Catholicism has an independent chief pontiff (the Pope) who can excommunicate people and call for crusades. He can also, on rare occasions, grant a divorce or a special Casus Belli. Rulers can request excommunications, divorce or an invasion casus belli from the Pope, but it will cost them a lot of Piety, and requires that the Pope hold them in high regard.

Perhaps the most central feature of the Catholic Church, however, is the investiture of bishops. As you probably recall, fiefdoms can be held by members of the clergy (the rich and juicy Temple type baronies in particular). The income from these holdings normally goes to the Pope and not the secular liege of the bishops. However, if the Prince-Bishop happens to like his liege more than the Pope, he will instead pay taxes to his liege (and allow his troop levies to be raised.) The problem is just that the clergy naturally tends to favor the Pope, which is why kings can pass a law called Crown Investiture. This allows them to appoint new bishops who are appropriately grateful and loyal. Why not just do this all the time then? Because the Pope will be most displeased with kings who have passed this law, effectively barring them from any special Papal favors. There is a way around this problem too though: antipopes. Kings with Crown Investiture and high enough Prestige can set up a Pope of their own; an Antipope. This will ensure that all of the bishops in the kingdom pay taxes to the Crown, and will allow the king to excommunicate characters within the kingdom (but not outside it), arrange divorce, etc. Moreover, characters within the kingdom are immune to excommunication by the Pope, and foreign bishops who prefer your antipope might actually pay taxes to him (and therefore to you.) Antipopes cannot call for Crusades, however.

Another downside is that the setting up - and existence of - antipopes harms the "Moral Authority" of your religion. This value represents how respected the religion is and its general hold over the faithful. When the value is low, the chief pontiff can no longer call for Crusades, heresies start to run rampant, and characters and provinces will not convert to the religion easily. It is all a trade-off, and trade-offs are the heart and soul of good gameplay.

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What about the other religions then? Well, in Orthodox Christianity the chief pontiff is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, and he is vassal to the Byzantine Emperor. There is no investiture conflict (church taxes go to the secular liege) and the Patriarch cannot call for Crusades. However, he can excommunicate characters and grant CBs and divorces. Pagans have no chief pontiff at all and lack all the special mechanics. The two Muslim religions (Shi'a and Sunni) resemble Orthodoxy, but the Caliph himself is the chief pontiff, and they can call for Jihad.

That's all for now. At some point I will talk more about heresies. :) Until next time!

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Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
 
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Magnos III said:
What happens if I, as Byzantium, make the pope become my vassal? unification of the church? if not, is there any way that would unify the Christian church?






(I use google translator since I'm not native speaker :p)
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What I can imagine happening in this scenario is the Pope relocates to some city in France (for argument's sake). Catholic Europe then recognizes the relocated Pope as legitimate and continues to follow him, and the Byzantines then set up a Patriarch of Rome, loyal to Constantinople.
 
Hawkeye1489 said:
What I can imagine happening in this scenario is the Pope relocates to some city in France (for argument's sake). Catholic Europe then recognizes the relocated Pope as legitimate and continues to follow him, and the Byzantines then set up a Patriarch of Rome, loyal to Constantinople.
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That is a good answer. There could be reunification of the eastern and western Christianity, but it should be a more complicated process than just capturing the flag, so to speak. Church councils, a great deal of diplomacy, and so on. For those who favor unifying at least the Christian world, this might be something worth making a mod for. If the Byzantine Empire is subject to the same succession laws as the western feudal kingdoms, then as I have done in CK1 and EU3: HTTT, it might be possible to join the HRE and ERE under the same dynasty, but ironing out the differences between the two churches would be a difficult task.

On Heretics, I took the DD as saying that there will be heretical branches of Christianity in the game. Thus saith Doomdark:

There are three groups of religions in CKII: Christian, Muslim and Pagan. Each group encompasses the main religions (e.g. Catholic and Orthodox) and their heresies (Waldensian, Bogomilist, etc.) Now, the specific religions have certain characteristics that set them apart from each other.
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So you could convert to Cathar if you wanted under the right historical conditions, and the religion of the monarch is the liege of the realm, so historically speaking the County of Toulouse would become a Cathar state, and you could only hope that it turns out better in the game than it did historically for the House of Toulouse and its allies. I would recommend waiting until Moral Authority is pretty low, so a crusade is less likely.
 
I you have been excommunicated, can you remove the 'trait' by creating an anti-pope?
 
Magnos III said:
What happens if I, as Byzantium, make the pope become my vassal? unification of the church? if not, is there any way that would unify the Christian church?
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Actually this did happen very briefly in 999 when John Philagathus, a Byzantine-backed candidate, became Pope. At that point in time, however, nobody was even aware that there was any need to unify the Church. Later on in the 12th century, Pope Alexander III toyed with the idea of becoming a Byzantine vassal under pressure from Frederick Barbarossa, and the negotiations did indeed involve Church Union. So yes, I think that, if the papacy became a Byzantine vassal, there should be Church Union. The religious differences would not properly solidify until the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and so I don't think that a rival anti-Byzantine pope would pop up in France or anything like that.
 
Zenith Darksea said:
Actually this did happen very briefly in 999 when John Philagathus, a Byzantine-backed candidate, became Pope. At that point in time, however, nobody was even aware that there was any need to unify the Church. Later on in the 12th century, Pope Alexander III toyed with the idea of becoming a Byzantine vassal under pressure from Frederick Barbarossa, and the negotiations did indeed involve Church Union. So yes, I think that, if the papacy became a Byzantine vassal, there should be Church Union. The religious differences would not properly solidify until the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and so I don't think that a rival anti-Byzantine pope would pop up in France or anything like that.
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The Great Schism was in 1054, the game starts in 1066...Just 12 years, is not an eternity of time. Unify the church should be possible (but very difficult, like the player needs to be the Byzantine Emperor and Holy Roman Emperor at the same time and have both the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope as vassals)
 
In fact the true "Great Schism" was in 1204.
1054 is a date used by classical historiography, but this date isn't very pertinent except for the symbol of the mutual (and legally invalid!) excommunication.
 
Kazmir said:
I you have been excommunicated, can you remove the 'trait' by creating an anti-pope?
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You should. It would be cool if you create a antipope when excommunicated, and then you lose the trait for the characters in your realm, but not for the characters outside your realm, they will see you as excomunicated. When a kingdom or something turn into loyalty to your antipope, you will lose the trait for the characters in this kingdom.
 
Menocchio said:
You should. It would be cool if you create a antipope when excommunicated, and then you lose the trait for the characters in your realm, but not for the characters outside your realm, they will see you as excomunicated. When a kingdom or something turn into loyalty to your antipope, you will lose the trait for the characters in this kingdom.
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But even within one´s own Realm there should be those that choose to side with the currente pope, and oppose the King and his antipope.

I also wonder if only Kings, or any independent ruler will be able to install an antipope.
 
Captain Frakas said:
1054 is a date used by classical historiography, but this date isn't very pertinent except for the symbol of the mutual (and legally invalid!) excommunication.
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It wasn't even an excommunication of the whole Eastern Church - the excommunication was directly solely at Michael Cerularius "and his followers". That is to say, it was a personal excommunication of the patriarch. Actually Cardinal Humbert got on quite well with the Byzantine emperor Constantine IX Monomachus.
 
Even 1204 is quite dodgy as a date. Theodore I Laskaris was pursuing reasonably successful schemes for unification of the churches after 1204, and it was only with John Vatatzes that the idea really hit the rocks (even at that point John Vatatzes was still trying, but it had lost popular support).

Edit - I would add that honestly I would see the problems on the Byzantine side as being much more significant than those on the Latin side. A rival Patriarchate would be more probable than a rival Papacy.
 
Zechariah Zevi said:
Edit - I would add that honestly I would see the problems on the Byzantine side as being much more significant than those on the Latin side. A rival Patriarchate would be more probable than a rival Papacy.
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Not probable. It happened. After the Fourth crusade the Latin empire appointed a Catholic patriarch of Constantinople, while the Orthodox one went to Nicaea.
 
Is it just me, or are the screenshots down? I just get an infinitely spinning hourglass.

I'm concerned that no-one will have a sufficient interest in restoring the Moral Authority of any religion to offset the advantages of creating or supporting rivals. Its the tragedy of the commons. Granted, this problem has a name because it happens frequently, but the tough part will be creating enough counterbalance that you don't have a reformation 500 years to early.

Otherwise you'll have a different religious leader for every 1% of the population. Every fifth Bishop will be a Pope.
 
I d love to ask how are the Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch are chosen? Is there a vote between Cardinals (or Bishops in the case of the Patriarch) are they are chosen "randomly" from AI? Is there anyway that the player can interfere with the election? aka push his favourite guy to the post etc.?
 
InnocentIII said:
Is it just me, or are the screenshots down? I just get an infinitely spinning hourglass.

I'm concerned that no-one will have a sufficient interest in restoring the Moral Authority of any religion to offset the advantages of creating or supporting rivals. Its the tragedy of the commons. Granted, this problem has a name because it happens frequently, but the tough part will be creating enough counterbalance that you don't have a reformation 500 years to early.

Otherwise you'll have a different religious leader for every 1% of the population. Every fifth Bishop will be a Pope.
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Don't worry about that. The requirements to make an Antipope should be so onerous that it's impossible for anyone to create one. We're talking 5,000 gold, 1,000 prestige, 500 piety, the support of 2/3 of the Bishops in the realm; that kind of thing. As for Moral Authority, Doomdark didn't say much about it. But it strikes me that it would be incredibly stupid to put it in the game and not have things like the Crusades, prestigious Popes, etc. improve it.

Remember IRL there almost two dozen Antipopes during the CK era, and there was no Reformation. Figurng out how to make the same thing happen in most games of CK is a game-balance issue. It may take awhile but eventually Paradox games are balanced quite well.

BTW, you may be over-estimating the advantages of having a pet Antipope. On paper it's great. You get taxes and religious powers. In practice all your people are going to have choose between you and God. It's probable most of them won't choose you. Which means the only people who recognize your religious powers are the ones who really liked you anyway, and you didn't need religious powers to please them.

Remember in CK1 there was a religious law called Royal Supremacy. On paper it was great. You got taxes and the Church did what you said. In practice everybody thought were being a Midieval L Ron Hubbard and you got really shitty events. REALLY REALLY shitty events.

I suspect that being the patron of an Antipope will be much the same. It'll be useful when you start a scenario basically at war with the Pope already, and good for RP if you wanna start an early Reformation. But the penalties will far outweigh the benefits and you're much better off sending your taxes to Rome.

Nick
 
Nick B II said:
Don't worry about that. The requirements to make an Antipope should be so onerous that it's impossible for anyone to create one. We're talking 5,000 gold, 1,000 prestige, 500 piety, the support of 2/3 of the Bishops in the realm; that kind of thing. As for Moral Authority, Doomdark didn't say much about it. But it strikes me that it would be incredibly stupid to put it in the game and not have things like the Crusades, prestigious Popes, etc. improve it.

Remember IRL there almost two dozen Antipopes during the CK era, and there was no Reformation. Figurng out how to make the same thing happen in most games of CK is a game-balance issue. It may take awhile but eventually Paradox games are balanced quite well.

BTW, you may be over-estimating the advantages of having a pet Antipope. On paper it's great. You get taxes and religious powers. In practice all your people are going to have choose between you and God. It's probable most of them won't choose you. Which means the only people who recognize your religious powers are the ones who really liked you anyway, and you didn't need religious powers to please them.

Remember in CK1 there was a religious law called Royal Supremacy. On paper it was great. You got taxes and the Church did what you said. In practice everybody thought were being a Midieval L Ron Hubbard and you got really shitty events. REALLY REALLY shitty events.

I suspect that being the patron of an Antipope will be much the same. It'll be useful when you start a scenario basically at war with the Pope already, and good for RP if you wanna start an early Reformation. But the penalties will far outweigh the benefits and you're much better off sending your taxes to Rome.

Nick
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Thus, also having good reasons to make everything possible to replace the current pope for your antipope.
 
I don't understand why there is Catholicism and Orthodoxy then "the heresies", that makes no sense to divide up Christianity.

Christianity in this era is essentially divided in Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonian churches. As far as the patriarch of Rome and Constantinple were concerned, they were rival popes. In fact in reality there were two antipopes, one backed by the German emperor and the other by the Byzantine emperor, but especially in this time, they weren't TWO religions, they should actually be reconcilable with one SUPREME patriarch.

The very idea that it would be harder to reconcile the Patriarch of Constantinople with that of Rome rather than Alexandria or Jerusalem ("mere" Heresies) is laughable. They had fundamentally different ideas about the very nature of Christ.

In 1066, you had basically 5 "real" patriarchs, 3 subservient ones (that don't really count but could be made independent).:
The Patriarch of Rome (aka "the Pope", head of "Catholicism") of the Catholic Church
The Patriarch of Constantinople (aka "the Patriarch", head of "Eastern Orthodoxy") of the Orthodox Catholic Church
The Patriarch of Baghdad (aka "the Catholicos-Patriarch" head of the "Nestorians") of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
The Patriarch of Alexandria (aka the "Pope-Patriarch" head of the "Copts") of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
The Patriarch of Vagharshapat (aka the "Catholicos" head of the "Armenians") of the One Holy Universal Apostolic Orthodox Armenian Church

Then there were three who were basically independent but recognized Constantinople's supremacy in 1066:
The Patriarch of Antioch (Syrian Orthodox Church)
The Patriarch of Jerusalem (Orthodox Church of Jerusalem)
The Patriarch of Kartli (Georgian Orthodox Church)

There were actually a few under the Pope as well, who had independence, though they recognized Rome's supremacy:
Patriarch of Aquilea (the Emperors used Aquilea's independence to reign in the Pope)
Patriarch of Grado (Grado split from Aquilea in the 6th century, and retained independence from the Pope)
 
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