Ruwaard said:

It's a nice map, but I don't like the set up in regions such as the Netherlands/Low Countries. However it does show that different people have different regions were they look at first to judge a map.

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*nod*

I don't remember anyone advocating for the low countries when he drew them, and he did the best he could. I'm sure there is alot that can still be tweeked, I can see some tweeks to the regions I follow too even now.

By the way, I like your idea:

Ruwaard said:

Not necessarily, more provinces in the relatively poorer regions, should also mean more poor provinces. However I'd also like to see the ability to develop provinces, so that certain technologies and investments should allow extra settlements (with the maximum of 8). In which case the mediterranean region and the middle east should start with the maximum or near the maximum number of provincial settlements, but the poorer European provinces should get the ability to develop (open up the ability for new and more settlements). For example there's a huge difference between Brugge (Bruges) in Flanders in 1066 or in 1399. During this period the European regions did a lot of catching up with the southern regions.

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Both Prince Gruffydd ap Cynan and his great grandson Prince Llywelyn the Great favored quasi-urban settlements, according to historian Professor John Davies. It would be nice if I as a player could direct these settlements into commerical urban centers and maybe compeate for market shares, developing a "center of trade", as it were.

Keep in mind that with the new Barony system a lot of the map concerns might be superflous. If Ynys Môn is a Barony in the County of Gwynedd it doesn't really need to be it's own County.

As for Lywellyn the Great's settlements, one of the types of Barony avaliable is a town, and you can found new baronies if you want.

Nick

Nick B II said:

Keep in mind that with the new Barony system a lot of the map concerns might be superflous. If Ynys Môn is a Barony in the County of Gwynedd it doesn't really need to be it's own County.

As for Lywellyn the Great's settlements, one of the types of Barony avaliable is a town, and you can found new baronies if you want.

Nick

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Maybe. But, really Ynys Mon should have its own county/comital level. Wales should have a minimum of 12 provinces as is reflected in the DVIP and TASS. And Ideally, as Cool Toxic has demonstrated, a few more could be squeezed-in as well.

So just how many provinces should other places have? If Wales, a relatively small kingdom, has 12 provinces, then how many would England need to have? If you massively increase the number of provinces England has, then you need to increase those of its major rival France, and this then gradually means that you end up with everywhere having lots of provinces, and no one actually being able to control their historical lands through going over their desmene limit, or alternatively historically small kingdoms end up able to control vastly more territory than they actually have, or should ever have.

Yeah I don't know why we need a lot of provinces. How about quality rather than quantity? I'd rather that you'd be able to do more with the provinces you control. Plus, more things happening. Besides, I thought the focus of this game was on people and relations.

Right. I prefer lower number of provinces with a lot of stuff actually happening inside that province.

BTW this should have more/less/the same number of provinces as CK1? Just curious.

SolSara said:

There are more provinces now.

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That's good news, but since the map is a bit larger, are those extra provinces just in new places? Or to put it more simple. Has Europe itself more provinces?

Sam L said:

Yeah I don't know why we need a lot of provinces. How about quality rather than quantity? I'd rather that you'd be able to do more with the provinces you control. Plus, more things happening. Besides, I thought the focus of this game was on people and relations.

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I agree.

I am perfectly fine with the CK1 province count.
Increasing their number _alone_ doesn't add anything to the game.

For me it doesn't matter if the historical Duchy of Luxemburg or Gwynedd looks 100% correct from above or 90%. If Wales is on the western side of the island, that's enough


For me inter-province (and court) actions is much more important then a large province count.

DreadLindwyrm said:

So just how many provinces should other places have? If Wales, a relatively small kingdom, has 12 provinces, then how many would England need to have? If you massively increase the number of provinces England has, then you need to increase those of its major rival France, and this then gradually means that you end up with everywhere having lots of provinces (...)

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If, in a map mod, Wales end with 12 provinces, then it seem that there should be one province per shire in England, one province per Pagus in France and one province per Gau in Germany etc. It mean lots and lots of provinces, but if some lads find it fun and if the engine permit it, and if their computers are powerful enough why shouldn't they try it?

DreadLindwyrm said:

, and no one actually being able to control their historical lands through going over their desmene limit, or alternatively historically small kingdoms end up able to control vastly more territory than they actually have, or should ever have.

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Demesne penalty is counted in baronies/settlements and not in counties/provinces.

Captain Frakas said:

If, in a map mod, Wales end with 12 provinces, then it seem that there should be one province per shire in England, one province per Pagus in France and one province per Gau in Germany etc. It mean lots and lots of provinces, but if some lads find it fun and if the engine permit it, and if their computers are powerful enough why shouldn't they try it?

Click to expand...

Because Paradox can't develop a map for the smaller audience, and they don't have time to make 2 maps to please everybody?

As much as I love the history of the British Isles and have Welsh heritage, the fact is that Wales was a relatively unimportant corner of the world for most the middle ages and not exactly an economic powerhouse. Hence, it shouldn't have 12 provinces. If it did then the rest of the world would have to be beefed up in comparison, and we'd end up with 2000 provinces. I think the increased detail of intra-kingdom politics will be provided through baronies and ensure the really important dynasties of Wales (or wherever else) are properly represented.

One thing I don't like about Wales is that it is way too easy for the English king to waltz in and conquer the whole kingdom. I think there should be events/battle choices to wage a guerilla war (or "secret war" if we wish to comtemporary with the setting) and bog down invaders. The Scots and the Welsh certianly did this against English aggression to varying degrees of success.

Now, if someone wants to make a mod with just the British Isles broken into the smallest scale possible, that would be sweet and allow one to get that detail in there. I would play it. (although I'd love a Dune mod probably more.)

telesien said:

Right. I prefer lower number of provinces with a lot of stuff actually happening inside that province.

BTW this should have more/less/the same number of provinces as CK1? Just curious.

Click to expand...

galuska said:

I agree.

I am perfectly fine with the CK1 province count.
Increasing their number _alone_ doesn't add anything to the game.

For me it doesn't matter if the historical Duchy of Luxemburg or Gwynedd looks 100% correct from above or 90%. If Wales is on the western side of the island, that's enough


For me inter-province (and court) actions is much more important then a large province count.

Click to expand...

I, as seen in my previous posts in this thread, would like to see more provinces with better borders, but that increase shouldn't be limitless, that's why I mentioned Mappa Regnorum. And there are other mods, which have improved the map; and in general mods have improved the game, using this might be helpful.

Besides define large; some would also like to include as much historic counties and duchies as possible.

DreadLindwyrm said:

So just how many provinces should other places have? If Wales, a relatively small kingdom, has 12 provinces, then how many would England need to have? If you massively increase the number of provinces England has, then you need to increase those of its major rival France, and this then gradually means that you end up with everywhere having lots of provinces, and no one actually being able to control their historical lands through going over their desmene limit, or alternatively historically small kingdoms end up able to control vastly more territory than they actually have, or should ever have.

Click to expand...

Remember in CK provinces are not power. Desmene income is because it's directly related to the number of troops you can raise. So modders were able to keep the game fairly balanced simply by not increasing the total gold a region produced when they added provinces.

So in DF's ideal map the Welsh King ends up with a lot of crappy provinces, which busts his desmene limit to hell, but no more money then he did under the original ridiculously small 6-province Wales. He's gained a couple cosmetic things: more Welsh Courts means more Welsh brides, and it's harder to get a claim on his King-title because claim-costs for a Duke or King-title are directly related to the number of titles in a realm. But he's also lost the ability to own the entire country personally, and spread out his already meager troops among more vassals.

IRL Wales has 13 Counties. England has 48. In CK it has about 30. I'd agree with him if I didn't think that the Baronies could fill the role of most of those provinces.

Nick

vadermath said:

Because Paradox can't develop a map for the smaller audience, and they don't have time to make 2 maps to please everybody?

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You've answered without reading my post, didn't you?

Sam L said:

Yeah I don't know why we need a lot of provinces. How about quality rather than quantity? I'd rather that you'd be able to do more with the provinces you control. Plus, more things happening. Besides, I thought the focus of this game was on people and relations.

Click to expand...

I agree. Personally, I'm fine with the province count the way it is.

galuska said:

I agree.

I am perfectly fine with the CK1 province count.
Increasing their number _alone_ doesn't add anything to the game.

For me it doesn't matter if the historical Duchy of Luxemburg or Gwynedd looks 100% correct from above or 90%. If Wales is on the western side of the island, that's enough


For me inter-province (and court) actions is much more important then a large province count.

Click to expand...

Thank you for providing me this opportunity to explain the issue (as I see it) by example...

The historic duchy of Luxembourg:

In 1066 there was no such thing. In 1066 on the other hand there was a dynasty descending from Siegfried of the Ardennes. That dynasty's senior branches were located respectively in Salm and Luxembourg. By the end of the 11th century these two entities would become known as the counties of Salm and Luxembourg. They had strong rivals in the counties of Vianden, Limburg, Namur and the arch-bishopric of Trier. For the following centuries the counts of Luxembourg would struggle and sheme against those rivals (as well as outside powers like the dukes of Brabant, the bishops of Liege, the counts of Hainaut, the counts of Flanders). After the first hundred years the dynasty of the counts of Luxembourg died out in the male line and the county was inherited by a count of Namur. That same count had managed to inherit two other, smaller counties achieving a powerful base. Unfortunatelly he was childless, accordingly he chose his nephew (iirc) the count of Hainaut as his heir. The result of this would have been the joining of a teritory from the Moselle in the east to the borders of Flanders in the west. This great power within Lotharingia was not to the liking of other powers of the area (Brabant, Limburg, Cologne, Flanders and Vianden among those directly concerned). So some countersheming took place, leading to the old and blind count of Luxembourg remarrying and his new wife bearing him a daughter. This in turn lead to conflict between the count and his nephew. The nephew conquered most of the uncle's territory found the support of the king (Barbarossa) who promised him the title of marquis of Namur (essentially duke tier to include Namur, Hainaut, Laroche, Durbuy and probably Luxembourg). But as usual, nothing went as planned and shortly the count of Luxembourg, his nephew the count of Namur and the king were dead (natural causes, except of course Barbarossa). The count of Luxembourg's daughter was a small child and became a tool for various nobles (count of Champagne, count of Bar and finally the duke of Limbourg), the count of Hainaut's two sons divided their inheritance (Flanders, Hainaut, Namur, Laroche and Durbuy) and the king's heir only managed to make matters worse by handing Luxembourg to his own brother all of this leading to a hundred years of constant feuding and shifting alliances. So by the end of the 13th century the former smallish county of Luxembourg has struggled to once again become a power (Luxembourg, Arlon, Laroche, Durbuy, parts of Namur, parts of Bar/Champagne/Lorraine, suzerainty over Vianden and parts once under other titles). It's only luck (bad or good?) that in the end decided to limit this expansion, a count and three of his brothers died in battle, the next generation would stop the local expansion and instead look towards other horizons, the crown of Germany and the Empire, the crowns of Bohemia and Hungary etc. How did they manage that? Through the prestige gained by several generations of previous counts in all those harsh struggles within Lotharingia. Shortly after the crown of Germany fell to the House of Luxembourg the duchy you mentionned was created (composed of the counties of Luxembourg, Arlon, Durbuy, Laroche, Vianden and other territories more difficult to define)...

So, now that we've seen this brief historical interpretation, what would happen in CK-I? Well nothing, the count of Luxembourg in 1066 already starts with all the territory his historic descendants had to sheme and fight for. Gaining the title of duke is just a question of months, on the other hand gaining the crown of Germany is allmost impossible. So, what should that count do? Certainly nothing that resembles history...

Now I'm not saying that every single county I named above need be included in CK-II. But a player who choses to play as the count of Luxembourg should have something to do and the historic path should at least be an option (not a necessity). And baronies won't be enough to achieve this, though they could add new aspects (as in addition to feuds with neighbours of varying importance the counts of Luxembourg also had to interact with lesser nobles like the lords of Esch, Rodemack or Wiltz (all dynasties who held half a dozen castles at least))...

Of course the counts of Luxembourg are just one example showing why CK-I was neither historical, nor really interesting to play. Increasing province count for CK-II is one way to make counties and even duchies more interesting to play. It is also a necessary step to make the game historically plausible (I'm not even talking about realistic as it seems there won't be a consensus to achieve that, so plausibility is my compromise offer)...

Note that if history is deemed irrelevant to CK-II than I'd reccomend dropping the map of Europe alltogether and instead create a fantasy world from scratch. And yes, now I'm joking a bit ;-) . Creating a fantasy world from scratch is much more work than researching history and implementing a plausible interpretation for a game :-D ...

I think in the end people want to look at the map and see a reasonably accurate representation of those parts of the world they are most familiar with. In some parts of the world this may require more provinces than in others. My own country is twice as big as Wales but the maximum number of provinces I would like to see there is just 6. I'm sure there are areas where the required density is even lower.