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InnocentIII

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Apr 22, 2001
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They suck.

Don't get me wrong, revolts are historically legitimate, even mandatory, but it's very difficult to make the player "own" the revolt, to make it clear what he did wrong to provoke the revolt. It's also tough to give legitimate options to avoid revolts without simply handing every player an "easy" button "click here or the people will revolt".

Right now, unless the player is diving into the politics tab regularly, revolts came come out of the blue for many people. This is especially true for newer players. Everything is going fine, or reasonably well, when the game makes the whole nation rise up in revolt with little or no warning.

PI should add a warning system pre-revolt. Not necessarily one which allows players to hit "make this go away", but one which gives the player 1) clear, advance notice, and 2) some clear message about what needs to change to avoid the revolt. My idea is that before any large-scale revolt, there must be a warning event, followed by a period during which the revolt cannot happen. The time given to react can be scaled to game difficulty level, with no warning at all at harder levels. Perhaps there could be three choices for the warning event: pay one price for delay, a larger price for longer delay, or "bring it on" to deliberately provoke the revolters. The warning doesn't need to extend the time of the revolt even by one day from when it would take place in 1.2, just give a six month warning six months before a revolt would happen now (if policies go unchanged).

Right now, the newer the player, the more random and illegitimate revolts feel. It's hard to become a more experienced player if it feels like the game randomly kicks you in the head. If players get a better sense that "I got a revolt because I didn't do X", revolts feel less random, more legitimate, and so more like a challenge to be overcome rather than an opportunity to quit.

Of course, they'll still suck.
 
Also, dealing with revolts in the whack-a-mole fashion is NOT FUN. Maybe PI should give us a way to put AI control on for our troops so they can handle the rebels popping up in all your 40 trillion provinces.
 
Also, dealing with revolts in the whack-a-mole fashion is NOT FUN. Maybe PI should give us a way to put AI control on for our troops so they can handle the rebels popping up in all your 40 trillion provinces.

This is why I avoid island chains, or places like the Caribbean. Loading and unloading troops into ships is far more micromanagement than sending a few stacks on walkabout. If I can grab 5-6 armies and have them march around the mainland, then all I need to do is mop up, as I invariably have a pocket of places I don't get to in time.

But if revolts are causing such consternation among people who played Vicky1, and others with long experience in EU games, what does some new guy think who fires up Vicky2, plays a while and then boom! the whole country explodes? An explicit warning and a message about what he's doing wrong would be a huge help IMHO. I can't see eliminating revolts (after my Boxer Rebellion I saved the game and shut off the computer, but on coming back it wasn't so bad, only 50-60 provinces, maybe 70), but their causes need to be made more comprehensible, and their occurrences need to appear more a product of events not a punishment for playing the game.
 
That is a very personal report.

New player? I happened to be a new player to a Paradox 'trademark' game.

I read the manual. The manual reads somewhere that you have to do see what you can do for populations when they start to organise into rebellious factions.

So I suppose any new player is able to do the same as I did.

The rebellions uncontrollable? Wrong. Under 1.1, I was able to get zero rebellion up to the 1890s. The situation devolved when I got sphered by the US with all the factories closing down.

Checking every moment the political tab? Wrong too. I used to work by spell of five years. Every five years or so, I used to check the revolt risk map to see if some issues were building up.

As of 1.2, useless to tell about it.

And there is an indicator to signal people organizing into rebellious factions.
Rebellions did not come out of the blue. They took time to mature.

The whole rebellion stuff could (and can) be brought under control.

The issue is not the rebellion system erraticness. The issue is that the politics settings are globalized, meaning that any time you add a new piece of land to your nation, you introduce populations on a different dynamics therefore a nest for rebellion.
Added to that, the number of NFs are limited and only conquering three states could already be too much.
 
The issue is not the rebellion system erraticness. The issue is that the politics settings are globalized, meaning that any time you add a new piece of land to your nation, you introduce populations on a different dynamics therefore a nest for rebellion.
Added to that, the number of NFs are limited and only conquering three states could already be too much.

I have a large number of colonies in Africa, and they (ironically) are not that unhappy with my government. It is my core population that is. I wonder if the average militancy needed for reforms should be on your accepted cultures or maybe even based on the citizenship policy of the ruling party instead of always being the whole country.
 
I don't like revolts the way they were in 1.1. If you had a large military those were enormous, and even though each rebel army was normally 1 brigade, it was very difficult to bring them under control because by around 1880 the revolters took a long time to kill, probably because they had machine guns or something.

I play Prussia/Germany, and in my current game at around 1880 I haven't had much problem. If mil starts to climb I have to deal with a cloud of them, but it's smaller and they die faster, so unless I'm under serious pressure already I can handle it.

So from my own perspective this looks like an improvement in 1.2.

As far as I can tell, rebels are the most major consequence to losing a war, and since I normally win them against the AI, they are my friend.
 
They seem to be a bit large, I mean as Japan I can easily have around 1,000,000 people rise up on the mainland alone, how is that in any way realistic?
 
They seem to be a bit large, I mean as Japan I can easily have around 1,000,000 people rise up on the mainland alone, how is that in any way realistic?

You had 333 brigades revolting against you all at once? In 1.2? In my experience even where there is a huge population belonging to a rebel faction they don't rise up in that many brigades.
 
I have a large number of colonies in Africa, and they (ironically) are not that unhappy with my government. It is my core population that is. I wonder if the average militancy needed for reforms should be on your accepted cultures or maybe even based on the citizenship policy of the ruling party instead of always being the whole country.

I see the reforms as a last minute action when every other possible course of actions fails.
When the causes behind militancy are so diverse it is no longer possible to address them specifically and that you need something to act globally.
Colonization in my book requires to bring the newly colonized population in the same momentum as the rest of the nation before thinking of expanding once more.

As a side note, I dont understand reforms as a panacea against militancy rise. A country with all reforms can still have a high level of militancy and rebellious organisation.

The last game I played with commitment was a Japan game under 1.1. I made two mistakes in this game: colonizing two states that would later turn on oil as their resource.
Up to that point, I had very few rebellions (only reactionaries) and passed only three political reforms (one being the result of an event) and never to calm down the population.

Reforms are not the primary way to deal with a rebellion issue. They are only there to manage cases for which everything else failed.
 
My problem is that, playing as the USA, I generally don't have the ability to pass reforms that the people want, because the stupid people don't vote in enough members of the parties that can pass those reforms. So instead of voting, they rebel. It makes no freaking sense. The whole point of a democracy is to vote in who you want to get what you want. If so many people want it, then they should vote that way. If not, then there wouldn't be a rebellions, since there shouldn't be enough public support for one in the first place.

Honestly, why does 14% of the population wanting a certain reform cause widespread rebellions? It simply does not work that way. If it did, we would see rebellions in every nation, all of the time, today.
 
You had 333 brigades revolting against you all at once? In 1.2? In my experience even where there is a huge population belonging to a rebel faction they don't rise up in that many brigades.
It's usualy the Anarcho-Liberals, the Jacobins aren't nearly as bad, but the Reactionaries are brewing up a nasty 500-750k force.
 
As I have said for probably the 1000th time, the problem is not nesscarily the revolts, its the way they are implemented.

First of all the game fails to distinguish between non-violent revolts (revolts characterized by strikes and ther non-violent protests that aim to cripple the state, forcing a revolution) or violent revolts (e.g. the ones currently in the game where rebels aim to directly seize control of the state).

If the second type of revolt happened, it is likely most of the soldiers would mutiny anyway (at least if it in the scale we've been seeingrevolts happen), something not currently modeled well in this game.
 
You had 333 brigades revolting against you all at once? In 1.2? In my experience even where there is a huge population belonging to a rebel faction they don't rise up in that many brigades.

As China my anarcho-liberals finally went, I counted 110 provinces revolting, and estimate that there are 600-800 bridages. My Mil was never >0.6, and no reform was ever possible, my WE had been back to zero for years.

I think anyone reading the forums - and this place is not an average cross section of players, people here are far more interested in the game than the typical guy who buys a box from Amazon - should realize that revolts are not coming across as the product of clearly avoidable player errors. They are much less of a problem in 1.2, but reducing the frequency of the revolts does nothing to make them more understandable when they happen.

That's a particular problem given that revolts now tend to be a late-game event. In my China game, my 2-2.5 million revolters popped in 1917. I saved the game, but I'm not sure I'm going back. The game was already creeping along fairly slowly, I have under 20 years left and it's not going to get better, should I bother? Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who is not so invested in the game that he spends his time hanging out in the forums...
 
I know revolts are supposed to be fixed with 1.2 but playing as Germany I have had to kill over a million of my own citizens in the last four years in Jacobin revolts. Every eigth months or so like clockwork with huge rebel armies springing up everywhere. It hasn't caused me much problem as my army is a merciless machine of death but it is still daft as there is no way they can win and surely eventually rebels get hold of the idea that they will all die and take a different tack? There should almost be an alternative to out and out rebellion immediately.
 
As China my anarcho-liberals finally went, I counted 110 provinces revolting, and estimate that there are 600-800 bridages. My Mil was never >0.6, and no reform was ever possible, my WE had been back to zero for years.

I think anyone reading the forums - and this place is not an average cross section of players, people here are far more interested in the game than the typical guy who buys a box from Amazon - should realize that revolts are not coming across as the product of clearly avoidable player errors. They are much less of a problem in 1.2, but reducing the frequency of the revolts does nothing to make them more understandable when they happen.

That's a particular problem given that revolts now tend to be a late-game event. In my China game, my 2-2.5 million revolters popped in 1917. I saved the game, but I'm not sure I'm going back. The game was already creeping along fairly slowly, I have under 20 years left and it's not going to get better, should I bother? Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who is not so invested in the game that he spends his time hanging out in the forums...

China has to be a country hard to manoeuver.
It cumulates various drawbacks: uncivilized (tecs help a finer management of pops), it leans to the East when danger comes from the West, a minority rules a gigantic majority. Any player starting a game with China should understand that rebellions are part of the package.

Rebellions can ignite anytime. But the game is not about managing the moment of explosion, it is all about preventing first the involvement of POPs into rebellious organizations and second if not done, reducing the numbers of POPs involved in rebellious organizations.

Both can be done.

It would not work if it was not possible for any country to prevent rebellious movements.
 
IMO, Rebel factions should be able to organise strikes, sabotage things and such.
With open, armed revolt being the absolute last option.

EDIT: It would be cool if some rebel factions were directly linked to a party too,
Though, the concept of "rebel" factions should be discarded entirely IMO.
They should be replaced with factions (nationalist and political).
Members of a faction that can rise in an armed revolt should be displayed, instead of the current rebel faction tab.

It's sad that coups ain't implemented, since a lot of governments came into power that way (most notably the bolsheviks).
 
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Huh? I thought there were 'coups', losing your capital for a year or something?

Mostly rebels have been quite manageable, occasional whacking is necessary as Absolutist you have little chance to reform afterall (intentionally raising militancy to be able to is not bad option, but as number of states grow the militancy events are usually not enough to get it high enought to 'convert the conservatives' )

My latest ... bloody commies...


rebels.png
 
Revolts with little or no warning are awesome and a key part of the vicky experience, imo. They're not supposed to be convenient and the player, acting as the 'ruling clique' or what-have-you, isn't supposed to know about them, so he shouldn't. It's not as if telling when a revolt is inboud is hard anyway- militancy and consciousness are right there on the main screen, and if you want to you can even find the individual pops who have aligned themselves with various factions and you can see what's making them angry. Giving people- new players or not- a leg up on rebels is stupid.

I agree that rebels, particulary in unpatched vicky 2 but also in 1.2, aren't handled effectively. The solution is to fix the rebel mechanic, not to make rebellions easier to handle.