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yourworstnightm

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Jul 9, 2004
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One of the areas not really satisfying in Vicky 1 was Africa. Sure it's the age of European Imperialism, but it's also the age of the last African kingdoms, and the lack of many of these kingdoms was kind of disappointing. I hope kingdoms like Ibadan, Kanem Bornu and Ganda will make it to Vicky 2.

Also, please have a ununified Ethiopia in 1836. I want to play the unification war of emperor Theodoric and the great conquests of Menelik II.:D
 
One of the areas not really satisfying in Vicky 1 was Africa. Sure it's the age of European Imperialism, but it's also the age of the last African kingdoms, and the lack of many of these kingdoms was kind of disappointing. I hope kingdoms like Ibadan, Kanem Bornu and Ganda will make it to Vicky 2.

Also, please have a ununified Ethiopia in 1836. I want to play the unification war of emperor Theodoric and the great conquests of Menelik II.:D

As Tewodoros did not unify Ethiopia until the late 1840s early 1850s, Ethiopia really should be depicted as three separate states at the start (Gonder, Tigre and Shoa) with each of them having the ability to form the larger unit of Ethiopia, much as the German States can have the possibility to form Germany.

As for the rest of sub-Saharan Africa, I'd love to see more nations added so that this ridiculous notion that Africa was mainly a land of acephalous, stateless societies who welcomes the establishment of colonial regimes could be thrown in the trashbin of bad history. All there was in base V1 was Sokoto, Madagascar, Zanzibar and Zulu, and in reality there should be at least the following included for an 1836 start

Buganda
Asante
Segu
Massina
Futa Jallon
Benin
Borno
Wadai
Baguirmi
Darfur
Lozi
Gaza Nguni
Ndebele
Kazembe
Mutapa

All of which we included in VIP, plus several smaller ones and a few conglomerates (for ex Tuareg, Bobangi, Nyamweze) as well to better model the nature of colonialism in Africa in the mod.

I dunno if V2 will include any of these in the first release of the game, but one can be assured that this modder will be doing something along these lines post-release (as well as doing some further tweaks to the map of Africa, since the base Clio map used for V2 by Paradox was designed for V1 and the limited number of provinces V1 had. With that limit now removed, further refinement I feel is definitely needed).
 
I'm very curious about the way Vicky II will handle the colonization aspect. I hope it's not definitely like Vicky I with lots of land without owner and the lack of historicity it supposed.

But I also understand that the work of VIP to fill almost all the gaps was so hardworking that it cannot be achieved in vanilla. Plus, since EU3 Paradox seems to be wary of determining events, a colonization system like VIP seems improbable; with an Africa or an Oceania full of tags, and the disappearence of colonial wars, how would the game difference between tag=FRA (france) or a tag=NDE (ndebele as an example) and treat the two nations differently?

By the information of the devs we have, it seems there will be a kind of "influence system", but what's still to be seen is that if that "colonial influence" value (similar by the concept to the HoI3 political influences I presume) will be applied over a blank mosaic of provinces (like Vicky I), or over tags of certain continents (a mixture ala VIP) that generates events firing wars or provinces transfers.
 
As Tewodoros did not unify Ethiopia until the late 1840s early 1850s, Ethiopia really should be depicted as three separate states at the start (Gonder, Tigre and Shoa) with each of them having the ability to form the larger unit of Ethiopia, much as the German States can have the possibility to form Germany.

Acctually the Ethiopian highlands should consist of the Amharic kingdoms of Goijam, Tigre and Shoa and the Oromo federations of Wollo and Yejju. If any of the Amharic kingdoms occupy Gonder (should be Yejju territory at start) there should be Ethiopian unification and a new Empire proclaimed.

The Lowlands are tricky, except the Sultanates of Jimma and Bela Shangul most of it was tribal territory before the conquests of Menelik.

Good list of kingdoms, but I miss the Yoruba kingdom of Ibadan on that list.
 
I'm very curious about the way Vicky II will handle the colonization aspect. I hope it's not definitely like Vicky I with lots of land without owner and the lack of historicity it supposed.

I read this on the "forumites view of Vic2" thread.

"There are no longer colonial buildings or colonial wars. Instead you will stake a claim on a colony, and once your claim is strong enough, you will gain control of the territory. One way to speed up this process is to station an army in the province. Armies may clash in contested colonies without a declaration of war".

So a bit more realisitic in some ways though this does sugest that quite a few provinces will start off empty. Unless you can stake claims to an Uncivilised countries provinces.
 
As Tewodoros did not unify Ethiopia until the late 1840s early 1850s, Ethiopia really should be depicted as three separate states at the start (Gonder, Tigre and Shoa) with each of them having the ability to form the larger unit of Ethiopia, much as the German States can have the possibility to form Germany.
Culture group! Culture group! Culture group!

As for the rest of sub-Saharan Africa, I'd love to see more nations added so that this ridiculous notion that Africa was mainly a land of acephalous, stateless societies who welcomes the establishment of colonial regimes could be thrown in the trashbin of bad history. All there was in base V1 was Sokoto, Madagascar, Zanzibar and Zulu, and in reality there should be at least the following included for an 1836 start

Buganda
Asante
Segu
Massina
Futa Jallon
Benin
Borno
Wadai
Baguirmi
Darfur
Lozi
Gaza Nguni
Ndebele
Kazembe
Mutapa
I'd also include Rwanda. The historical strength of the Rwandan precolonial state is a major factor in the region, and has had...implications for present events, let's say, to stop this from getting off-topic. The Germans and Belgians essentially just co-opted the existing state structure; the area might best be represented as a satellite state in-game (of course, vanilla will only have a GC so no worries there).
 
For me colonization and building claim buildings is one of the best and most interesting features of Victoria 1, especially in multiplayer games. Africa filled with uncivilized nations wouldn't have been nearly that fun.

The system Paradox announced for Victoria 2 might be even better of course.
 
For me colonization and building claim buildings is one of the best and most interesting features of Victoria 1, especially in multiplayer games. Africa filled with uncivilized nations wouldn't have been nearly that fun.

The system Paradox announced for Victoria 2 might be even better of course.

Well, acctually in reality the European intrusion usually meant the bloody conquest of African Kingdoms.
 
As for the rest of sub-Saharan Africa, I'd love to see more nations added so that this ridiculous notion that Africa was mainly a land of acephalous, stateless societies who welcomes the establishment of colonial regimes could be thrown in the trashbin of bad history.
Yes, but... do you have any ideas how this could be done properly in Victoria? I'm sure you'll agree that the way you guys implemented these states in VIP was, at best, very problematic. The existence of these states hugely sped up colonisation. This was circumvented by creating "African mobilisation" events - but that was just so terribly wrong, especially since, IIRC, these events faded out over time, in order to allow these places to be colonised as history saw fit. Granted, under the premise that we must show African states on the map, this was probably the least-worst solution - but it's still not a good solution. I would argue that a decent colonisation system, where you need to dispatch troops to take control of a colony and all that, would be far more appropriate.

At the end of the day, these tribal states were simply not in the same league as the rest of the world, even the rest of the uncivilised world. Depicting the Zulus as a state of comparable complexity as Oman or China just doesn't make sense. Unless Paradox decides to create a third tier of states - unplayable, tribal societies that cannot conduct war outside of their own borders and whose territories can be taken without a peace treaty, I would say these tribal states should stay out of the game. Otherwise, we'll wind up with terrible history in an attempt to wipe out bad history :).
 
How about giving African provinces crazy attrition for non-Africans (countered by certain medicine inventions) and maybe a high defense bonus as well (countered by the invention of machine guns)?
This might be able to simulate history well without resorting to gamey decisions.
 
How about giving African provinces crazy attrition for non-Africans (countered by certain medicine inventions) and maybe a high defense bonus as well (countered by the invention of machine guns)?
This might be able to simulate history well without resorting to gamey decisions.
In Africa's case, that's a good idea.

"Fevers" were white-man-killer of the first magnitude in Africa. There were situations where the native troops just withdrew and allowed the Europeans to follow, knowingly waiting for disease to take them out. Madgascar for instance.

Before tropical medicine had come of age, certain areas of Africa were simply no-go zones.

It would be interesting to have that kind of "quality of life" situation modeled onto the geography of the world — where Europeans aren't going to be able to get their cattle to survive in the tse-tse regions of Africa etc.
 
Explain in which way the Ethiopians were more advanced than any other Sub Saharan kingdom.
A couple of thousand years of literacy and administration, architecture and engineering in stone, firearms...

Sub-sahara you get roughly similar capabilities in large of west Africa, which could be modelled. They weren't that different from sultanates like Wadai, Cordofan, Darfur, Wadelai etc., which I take it might have been your point?

As far as I understood it, the complaint is about a number east, central and south African societies, which certainly had things metalworking and some impressive political entities (Maasai, Azande federation, Buganda, Bunyoro, Zulus, Matabeles, Swazis etc.), but lacked literacy, engineering more on par with at least the Mid East, and firearms.

Though one problem is that African societies in the 19th c. saw emerging states also as an effect of the pressure from Muslim states and eventually European incursions.

I mean, when Stanley set off on his Emin Pascha Relief Expedition in the late 1880's he was consciously avoiding the lands of the king of Bunyoro, precisely because the king had done his damndest to raise and army of 1500 riflemen armed with relatively up to date army rifles (Spencers and Jocelyn & Starrs). If he had to fight them, Stanley's expedition was armed with US made repeaters, but even then he wasn't confident he could win. He also went in through the Congo, since he anticipated that trying to reach Emin in the Equatoria province from the African east coast, through the land of the Maasai, would simply not be possible, as the Maasai would contest the passage. As it happened the German Emin relief expedition under Carl Peters (arch-bastard) tried precisely that, with Peters trying to literally shoot his way through the Maasau, but failing for running out of ammunition.

As late as the 1870's-80's there were two areas in Central Africa that successfully resisted incursions by slave raiders and European explorers alike; the lands of the Azande federation (the size of France straddling the border of the Sudan, the CAR and the Congo precisely becuase the colonial authorities wanted to break the Azande up), and the Maasai.

Towards the 1890's you get France taking Dahomey in a proper military campaign involving thousands of troops, and being faced by the fire of the Dahomeyan forces sporting modern rifles, and further bolstered by 7 Reffye machineguns with 4 million rounds, as well as couple of Krupp artillery pieces.

It's nothing on par with what you would get in a European war at the time, the 1890's, but I would think not that far from what a European minor in say 1836 might be able to field?
 
Towards the 1890's you get France taking Dahomey in a proper military campaign involving thousands of troops, and being faced by the fire of the Dahomeyan forces sporting modern rifles, and further bolstered by 7 Reffye machineguns with 4 million rounds, as well as couple of Krupp artillery pieces.

That's rather amazing. From what I know from my reading about North America, when the natives managed to lay their hands on firearms, they were just as effective in battle as the Europeans, sometimes even more.
I wish this were modeled in EU, and I hope it will be in Victoria.
 
As I have stated before, Vicky 1 did no justice to Africa. Let's hope Vicky 2 do this better.

One thing with Ethiopia that really bugs me is how the Lowlands realistically could be portrayed in Vicky, before the conquests of Menelik II the Lowlands consisted mostly of disorganized tribes (except Jimma and Bela Shangul, Wollega can be discussed, but it was not unified).
 
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