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Thread: INF to MOT to MEC Upgrades?

  1. #21
    Lt. General von Sachsen's Avatar
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    For INF, you could do the same thing that WiF did, add brigades that make it roughly the equivalant of MOT. Yes, this would make them unable to have another brigade attachment, but that is the players choice.
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by von Sachsen View Post
    For INF, you could do the same thing that WiF did, add brigades that make it roughly the equivalant of MOT. Yes, this would make them unable to have another brigade attachment, but that is the players choice.
    For that purpose, there are 20 user defines brigades availible for modders - should be no problem to make such things now.
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  3. #23
    But that way doctrines and such send the combat stats way out of whack.

    INF-MOT-MEC and CAV-MEC is the best.
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  4. #24
    Veteran Forumist HJ Tulp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyK1NG- View Post
    yeah thought about that but did not found any proper soultion. also what should happen if you hit that button. goes the unit to the pool/production queue or just magicly changes its appearences like this would work as an upgrade?
    The latter if you ask me. Eitherway is good though. Don't be afraid to make a decision
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by HJ Tulp View Post
    I don't think I've been ridiculling anything. I knew that W-SS divisions were changed all the time but I was under the impression that such things happened when those divisions were badly damaged.
    The divisions were not converted because they were heavily damaged. They were converted because they were in Germany, and they were in Germany to reorganize and reform because they were heavily damaged.

    Did other nations transform Mechanized divisions into armored divisions?
    No idea, but I don't see how that's relevant. It happened in Germany, and it should be perfectly possible.

    Ofcourse there is a sort of logic in transforming a MEC into a ARM as an ARM division usually is a mechanized Regiment with 2 armored regiments and things like that.
    So why the initial opposition? I'd even go as far as saying the conversion from MEC to ARM should be easier than from MOT to MEC (doctrine and training wise, not with regards to equipment) since MEC and ARM fight much in the same way, while MOT fights like INF with MEC fighting completely different.

  6. #26
    Units which converted from one type to another are a bad example (and yes, other nations besides Germany did, such as the Soviets convering Airborne into full Infantry Corps, US converting from basic Infantry to Motorized, and so forth). Converting from one division to another really represents breaking down the current division and reforming it in most cases, and still involves a significant amount of new equipment being produced. Really, the WiF solution is probably the best you can get for upgrading, as shifting a full strength unit from one type to another is equivalent (in game terms) to disbanding the unit and building a whole new one. The only problem is you don't get the experience from the previous unit.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeathDemon View Post
    The divisions were not converted because they were heavily damaged. They were converted because they were in Germany, and they were in Germany to reorganize and reform because they were heavily damaged.
    Nevertheless, if you change the make-up of a division from 3 regiments (hypothatically speaking ofcourse) of Mechanized infantry to 1 Regiment of Mechanised infantry and 2 Regiments of tanks it's more logically to do so with a division that only has a regiment of mechanized infantry left

    No idea, but I don't see how that's relevant. It happened in Germany, and it should be perfectly possible.
    It's a bit silly to make a game-function that was only used by one country isn't it?

    So why the initial opposition? I'd even go as far as saying the conversion from MEC to ARM should be easier than from MOT to MEC (doctrine and training wise, not with regards to equipment) since MEC and ARM fight much in the same way, while MOT fights like INF with MEC fighting completely different.
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  8. #28
    early on in German there simply were not enough halftracks and other vehicles to motorize or mech divisions. It took production quite a while to catch up to needs and even by 1944 the lack of vehicles and fuel still made it hard to get
    enough to outfit divisions. The history of the 1st SS and 116th Panzer Divisons are perfect examples of evolution of
    divisions. Also the motorizing of US infantry divisions from 1936 to 1942. US Infantry was never mech infantry (this
    is halftrack inf unless your counting the usual attached TD or Tank battalion) but motorized. It would be nice to see
    a possible IC diversion/usage to upgrade my motorization/mechanization units to evolve as needed to higher quality
    combat units. Could be a doctrine to be researched? Implimented by a button and using ICs and time to complete.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by HJ Tulp View Post
    Nevertheless, if you change the make-up of a division from 3 regiments (hypothatically speaking ofcourse) of Mechanized infantry to 1 Regiment of Mechanised infantry and 2 Regiments of tanks it's more logically to do so with a division that only has a regiment of mechanized infantry left
    True up to a point. You could for example use 1 of those regiments, break it up, and form the core of 2 new regiments of a new division. Not in-game of course, too difficult to simulate, but just saying this to show you that a conversion in real life would be possible, and indeed beneficial, even if the unit is at full strength.

    It's a bit silly to make a game-function that was only used by one country isn't it?
    I disagree. It was possible, and it makes sense, so it should be an option. Using the same logic as your argument here, you could argue nukes shouldn't be in the game, because only the US used them. Same for marine divisions, super heavy tanks, etc...

    Well I am a pain the butt for one
    That and I had posted before I thought it through
    No problem.

    And @nessin: I agree. The system I propose (let's take the example of MOT => MEC): Simply put the unit into the production list as MEC, it costs as many IC and as much time as producing a new one (debatable, but the men do have to be retrained up to a point so that they are familiar with their equipment, and the equipment has to be produced), but they keep all their experience. And that is of course the only advantage of converting a division, you get a new and more capable division with experienced soldiers.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by great_chairman View Post
    But that way doctrines and such send the combat stats way out of whack.

    INF-MOT-MEC and CAV-MEC is the best.
    This progression gets my vote - though perhaps instead of Cav to Mec you can have a choice to either upgrade them to Air Cav or Mec Cav (something akin to an Armoured Cavalry regiment but larger (thinking of the US 1st Cavalry Division which is actually patterned on a standard arm division))

  11. #31
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    Honestly I would jsut be happy with
    MIL -> INF Because it makes sense that you could train militia into infantry.
    CAV -> MOT Which also makes sense and what historically happened.

    When it is time upgrade clicking upgrade should return the unit to either the production que or the TC que. Upgrade IC should be spent and a small amount of money to keep it from being abused. For MIL to INF i think all experience should be kept but from CAV-> MOT some shoudl be lost maybe liek 5 since fundementally the doctrines are different.
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  12. #32
    Personally, I would go with this list:
    --MIL--not upgradeable, due to the quality of the men put in these units
    --INF<->MOT--can add or take away the trucks to motorize these, otherwise they fight the same
    --MOT->MECH--one way upgrade that means fighting a different way for the unit, it has a lower manpower usage but higher IC/materials usage, and is much harder (50/50 hard/soft)
    --ARM--standalone units that are specialized to the tasks they are given-breakthrough and exploitation
    --CAV->armored cav--cavalry is used for scouting and securing advanced positions (ie exploitation), armored cav enhances its speed and is much better suited for the modern battlefield, some are so capable they can stand in for armored units in the breakthrough role
    --airborne->air cav (?)--this one I'm not sure about, both secure advanced positions through air mobility, but airborne is supposed to remain in position until relieved, and air cav is to use its mobility to do exploitation roles behind enemy lines
    --armored cav should not upgrade to air cav, since they require completely different training, equipment, etc.
    --GAR, MTN, MAR are so unique they should not upgrade, unless you want to add an armored marine unit to the game(though MAR with armored attachments would probably fill this role)
    --you might could implement a INF->MTN, MAR, AIR upgrade (with increasing unlikeliness in that order)

    Anyway this is all just in my opinion. One thing I would like to see though is the combined arms bonus re-worked. The bonus itself needs to be more substantial than 5% on offense and the mech unit should work as inherently a CA unit. Add them to soft units in a corps (in the right proportion) and it is CA. Add them to ARM in a corps (again in the right proportion), and it should also be CA (which is not in the game). Have them alone in a corps and it should be CA (also new). They are supposed to be the epitome of infantry units that can fight both mounted in vehicles, or dismounted with their vehicles in fire support role. Thus they are theoretically able to respond to any situation.

    As an example, see the modern US Army. They don't use plain infantry units any longer, or motorized divisions, they use mechanized infantry and armor. They are used as an intrinsically CA unit with both soft and hard elements, and equally capable of fighting in a static or mobile battlefield (while armor retains the ability to fight better in a mobile battlefield due to their nature). While their vehicles nowadays are so capable that they put the WW2 equivalent mech vehicles to shame for firepower and armor, the theory was there in the beginning to do the same basic thing.
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  13. #33
    The Last Eurofederalist LeeDub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HJ Tulp View Post
    It's a bit silly to make a game-function that was only used by one country isn't it?
    You mean, like nukes?

  14. #34
    Veteran Forumist HJ Tulp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeDub View Post
    You mean, like nukes?
    More like Japans submarine aircraft carriers.
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  15. #35
    The problem is, that you cant really say where to upgrade to. So if you want a Inf39 upgrade to Inf41 or to Mot39? I think it would of course be nice to have that ingame, but i think it would be incredible hard to programm something like that with a proper selection for users.

  16. #36
    Veteran Forumist HJ Tulp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deathn View Post
    The problem is, that you cant really say where to upgrade to. So if you want a Inf39 upgrade to Inf41 or to Mot39? I think it would of course be nice to have that ingame, but i think it would be incredible hard to programm something like that with a proper selection for users.
    Light Tank to Medium Tank is possible as well.
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  17. #37
    Yes, but you cant choose. And that is the problem. I want to choose if my Inf is upgradet to Mot or to a better Inf model.

    I always hated that LightTank->MediumTank thing, because if you calculate the costs it is completely useless and makes just some work for me to stop upgrading for every single light tank.

  18. #38
    The Last Eurofederalist LeeDub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HJ Tulp View Post
    More like Japans submarine aircraft carriers.
    And how is it different? Nobody else was ever close to having a nuke during ww2 and yet it is in game. Because it happened.

    Nobody in the world used strategic missiles... except Germany. And everyone can do it in-game. So why not Mec->Arm?

    LArm->Arm should be possible with a button, like all other conversions. It shouldn't be automatic, and there should be research to upgrade LArm further down the line, too.

  19. #39
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    ive added now an upgrading issue to the queue which contains
    the implementation of an upgrade button for LArm to Arm and from Mil to Inf.
    Cav-Mot-Mec cycle is way too complicated at the moment, maybe it gets in some day, but im promising nothing and i stick to that.

  20. #40
    The Last Eurofederalist LeeDub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyK1NG- View Post
    ive added now an upgrading issue to the queue which contains
    the implementation of an upgrade button for LArm to Arm and from Mil to Inf.
    Cav-Mot-Mec cycle is way too complicated at the moment, maybe it gets in some day, but im promising nothing and i stick to that.
    That's immensly cool! Cheers!

    Man, it sure is fun to have some say in game development.

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