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unmerged(128970)

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Dec 19, 2008
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  • Europa Universalis: Rome
In my last game I noticed that some events destroy the whole balance of the game. When playing as Iberians I recruited so many troops that my income went negative. When I had -1 gold the event "+50 gold, -1 stability" fired. For 3 gold I increased my stability and suddenly had loads of gold I could never have earned by taxes nor by trade. I spent the money, conquered some provinces, build ships and again my income went negative. When I had -2 gold the same event fired... 10 gold invested in a stability increase -> 40 gold plus out of nowhere.
Don't you think this is riddiculous?

When thinking about a solution that makes sense I realised that there are several nice ways of fixing this:
- First all events that give you money for free should be removed (maybe some characters could give some money to the state and thus gain prominence and popularity, but I'm speaking about amounts around 5 - 10 gold, not 50 or more!)
- When going negative populists could become very (!) strong or the ruler popularity could decrease rapidly.
- It should be possible to sell buildings for half of the building price
- Buildings should be sold automatically if not by the player
- Regiments could get angry and revolt or disband (without filling up the manpower pool again!) (but before the sliders in the military menu should maybe lower themselves automatically)
- when going negative, stability should decrease by one for each 10 gold steps below zero (by the way, when increasing or decreasing the investment size gold is subtracted from the treasury. Thus one could go below -200 gold! Is there a way to make events impossible that cost more money than a player has?)
- There could be events, that some other player or a bank or a rich character lends money to the state for a very high interest rate

There could be many more ways of making sure that no player really wants to go below zero. There shouldn't be a way to systematically abuse the events that give you money for free.

There are other events that give money. For example an event about lootings during a war (I don't know if they use the word lootings, but you should know which one I mean: "character X wants to keep all the lootings for himself" and there are two or three decisions about whether the player wants to take the money for himself or leave it to the general). It doesn't seem logical to me that small nations get the same amount of money from these events as large nations. And also, talking about war lootings, from bigger countries one should get larger amounts of money.

Other of my recent ideas are about tech-levels. I'd love to steal techs from other players by invading their countries. Maybe it is too difficult to implement, but these ideas are only stubs anyway.
 
Suggestion to improve VV politics

I'm looking forward to this mod, however I do want to suggest a minor detail.

In EU: Rome VV there is currently the problem that you play not as the nation's leader, but above him (as the nation). While this wasn't a real problem in the past, it has become a problem IMO with VV. I think you can understand it if I give an example: suppose you play with a republic and the nation's populists are gaining ground in the senate, you might want to prevent that as populists are "bad". However when a populist leader is elected you still aim to remove him (at least I try), because you get these serious penalties. This should change IMO as you should always act out of best interest for the leader's point of view and not the nation. Otherwise you can just scrap all those fancy imprisonment and exile options if you play above the leader and his party.

In short there should be some incentive to keep a leader (even populist) in place, currently you always (unless he is very good) try to remove a populist or bad leader as fast as you can. Thus there should be some bonus for populists as well and penalties for the other parties also.

Also party alignment should be improved. I can remember that before the VV 2.1 patch a character's occupation would influence his political conviction. Now later in the game most characters will become populists because you don't even have enough offices to give to them.
 
- First all events that give you money for free should be removed (maybe some characters could give some money to the state and thus gain prominence and popularity, but I'm speaking about amounts around 5 - 10 gold, not 50 or more!)
Agreed. :)
- When going negative populists could become very (!) strong or the ruler popularity could decrease rapidly.
Yes box.
- It should be possible to sell buildings for half of the building price
- Buildings should be sold automatically if not by the player
I don't think the Romans sold buildings when they wanted to get out of financial crises. It's not as though someone would buy your left-over arena. Instead, I would like to see events that asked the player if he/she wants to temporarily close down certain buildings. This would add a province modifier that compensates for the building effects.
- Regiments could get angry and revolt or disband (without filling up the manpower pool again!) (but before the sliders in the military menu should maybe lower themselves automatically)
The slider thing isn't possible to do, but I agree that regiments should disband if they don't get paid.
- when going negative, stability should decrease by one for each 10 gold steps below zero (by the way, when increasing or decreasing the investment size gold is subtracted from the treasury. Thus one could go below -200 gold! Is there a way to make events impossible that cost more money than a player has?)
That's a bit nasty, I don't think we should kill the player completely if he's/she's below zero. No money and no stability isn't exactly a good situation. Btw, it's not possible to go below 200 gold with my investment size decisions. And yes, it's possible to prevent events from triggering if the treasury is empty.
- There could be events, that some other player or a bank or a rich character lends money to the state for a very high interest rate
Yeah, that's a good idea.
Other of my recent ideas are about tech-levels. I'd love to steal techs from other players by invading their countries. Maybe it is too difficult to implement, but these ideas are only stubs anyway.
Stealing technology sounds good to me. :)
In EU: Rome VV there is currently the problem that you play not as the nation's leader, but above him (as the nation). While this wasn't a real problem in the past, it has become a problem IMO with VV. I think you can understand it if I give an example: suppose you play with a republic and the nation's populists are gaining ground in the senate, you might want to prevent that as populists are "bad". However when a populist leader is elected you still aim to remove him (at least I try), because you get these serious penalties. This should change IMO as you should always act out of best interest for the leader's point of view and not the nation. Otherwise you can just scrap all those fancy imprisonment and exile options if you play above the leader and his party.

In short there should be some incentive to keep a leader (even populist) in place, currently you always (unless he is very good) try to remove a populist or bad leader as fast as you can. Thus there should be some bonus for populists as well and penalties for the other parties also.
I agree, players shouldn't be encouraged to undermine their own governments. My idea is to add a monthly increase to tyranny for unpopular leaders (in static_modifiers.txt), since this would give an incentive to keep even the most idiotic leader popular. After all, the player can invest in propaganda if it becomes a problem.

Also party alignment should be improved. I can remember that before the VV 2.1 patch a character's occupation would influence his political conviction. Now later in the game most characters will become populists because you don't even have enough offices to give to them.
Are you talking about VV vanilla or Imperium now? I was under the impression that the titles from CH kept the populists at bay quite nicely.
 
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The other day I brainstormed a bit about some game play elements and the user interface. I’m listing them in this thread so you can maybe easily refine some of the already existing elements of the game without having to put too much effort in it.
First, some suggestions:

- Easy to fix: There are insufficient characters for Rome. Especially the AI can’t handle the problem.

- There should be more and more interesting possibilities to increase the popularity of a ruler. IMHO it is too easy to be popular with the people just by having a high martial skill but low charisma and finesse. There could be decisions (like gladiator games that maybe lower tax income for one month (people work less) but give some popularity) and so on.

- The influence and meaning of wealth is simulated very poorly in EU: Rome. What do I care if a character loses some wealth? I’d always choose the decisions that give popularity if there is a corresponding event where my king could spend some of his (private) money to increase his popularity.
First, wealth should be more important. Wealth could be used by the characters for buying friends and the influence in the senate could be increased if a person is very wealthy. Second, why is wealth for characters calculated differently than the wealth of nations? My nation might only earn 2.5 gold a month while some characters have incredible amounts of money a whole nation could only dream of.

- A great way to increase popularity or tax income would be a slider for taxes. If I impose high taxes people would more likely rebel, if I impose low taxes popularity or stability could increase after some time.

- Investments (investment screen) should be permanent. At the moment one has to trigger them again each year, which can be annoying. I’d rather solve this by allowing the player to turn them on and off whenever he / she wants to.

- About the problem of the populist leaders being “bad”: Populists could make it very easy to rule a nation because they have a huge popularity bonus. An interesting feature would be to allow populists to do only what the strongest faction wants (for example: If the military faction is the strongest faction in the senate populists can’t build or make new traderoutes). Just an idea, not very refined yet ;)


Apart from the general suggestions I would love if the user interface were refurbished a bit. Some ideas (I hope not all of them are hardcoded):

- All tooltips concerning percentages should be consistent (for example: “have more manpowerpercent than 0,9%”. 0.9% is not 90%! And floating point values like 0.5 don’t necessarily mean 50%. In EU: Rome they sometimes do.).

- Many things are never explained in-game, like the three modifiers for generals: “Rally”, “Hold Ground” and “Force Attack”. What do they exactly do? I saw that “Rally” increased the morale of the troops during a battle. Such things seem very logical to those who understand the whole game. But for the others the game would be much better if the in-game documentation were a bit more detailed.

- I heard that population growth is calculated monthly until a province reaches 10 pop and then it is calculated yearly. Is this true? Could one implement such information in tooltips? I’d be thankful.

- How is attrition calculated? Troops without general suffer higher attrition than troops with generals. Why? And what is the factor of this? Is it influenced by character attributes? Where can I see the newly implemented climate map which influences attrition? (Is it possible to implement this as a map view and replace for example the senseless “religious map view”?)

- What does the troops experience do? Does it increase discipline? The tooltip doesn’t even give a hint.

- In one of my last games I realized that titles like “cupbearer” and so on increase the characters influence in the senate. The tooltip doesn’t say that, nor does it say how much

- How is war exhaustion calculated? By the time a nation is at war or by the number of fallen soldiers? (which would be much more realistic)

- How is the boost of morale of “propaganda” meant to work? The tooltip omits that information. Is it monthly or yearly? Because war exhaustion seems to decrease ruler popularity monthly and it doesn’t tell either.

- Reading an AAR I learnt that it is problematic to have a BBR (= infamy?) bigger than 25 because all nations would start assassinating my characters. Is that true? Could this be represented in a tooltip?

- Is there a variable “diplomacy success chance”? The success chance could be shown in the diplomacy view where the relation and the estimated change is shown

- I’ve never seen a tooltip that shows me the current political conviction of characters and how it is influenced. How does the system work? Can a character become a member of the military faction if it has 10% less political attraction than the civic party?


It would be possible to continue this list for many more suggestions. It was just a brainstorming and I guess much of it can’t be implemented. At least it might stimulate more ideas 
 
For me I see this mod heading in the completely right direction so i'll keep my ideas short for a list of suggestions. This is more like a wishlist as nothing here is probably new.

The #1 thing I would like to see above everything aside from what Descartes already has said will be in the future is that I would like to see more nations in the game. I don't like this vast uncolonized territory concept in games like this.

Since Descartes seems so awesome at modding this game from what i've seen at features already I would like to see an extended map at least containing Alexander the Greats conquests. I would like to see the Bactrian kingdom region, etc. My ideal map would be something along the lines of the EB mod for Rome Total War. That includes Ethiopia, arabia, east to india. There is a map mod out there already that is much improved in terms of province placement, maybe connect with that project? I remember there was one that aimed at extending the map, it might of been RIMP but i could be wrong. I am of the opinion that the map in vanilla is in dire need of improving.

edit: Looks like rimp was the mod expanding the map, check it out:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9503242&postcount=394
Since imperium already includes other mods checking this mod out for possible inclusion at least for the map would be on my wishlist.

I played this mod before it got its own forum section and was called imperium, i'm impressed with the direction its taken this whole time. Awesome work.
 
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hmmm 2 things I'd like to see :

1. Decisions and Missions modified to take female rulers into consideration. ATM it is very hard for a Queen to raise popularity. Also missions like 'Get loyal Soldiers' are impossible to fufil.

2. Nations gain Military research for fighting battles during a war.

While I also would like more nations I can see a problem if there are a lot of 1 province minors - Rome will blob. Though this might not be a bad thing...
 
While I also would like more nations I can see a problem if there are a lot of 1 province minors - Rome will blob. Though this might not be a bad thing...
So far playing this mod i havn't seen rome gobble up much, it seems to have a chance of happening though not high enough to not warrent more minors.

I just think more nations and a large map both add more to the game in depth and terms of fun.

To me I want to play as certain nations, like suebi, but having nothing but blank territory around you is not fun.
 
For me I see this mod heading in the completely right direction so i'll keep my ideas short for a list of suggestions. This is more like a wishlist as nothing here is probably new.

The #1 thing I would like to see above everything aside from what Descartes already has said will be in the future is that I would like to see more nations in the game. I don't like this vast uncolonized territory concept in games like this.

Since Descartes seems so awesome at modding this game from what i've seen at features already I would like to see an extended map at least containing Alexander the Greats conquests. I would like to see the Bactrian kingdom region, etc. My ideal map would be something along the lines of the EB mod for Rome Total War. That includes Ethiopia, arabia, east to india. There is a map mod out there already that is much improved in terms of province placement, maybe connect with that project? I remember there was one that aimed at extending the map, it might of been RIMP but i could be wrong. I am of the opinion that the map in vanilla is in dire need of improving.

edit: Looks like rimp was the mod expanding the map, check it out:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9503242&postcount=394
Since imperium already includes other mods checking this mod out for possible inclusion at least for the map would be on my wishlist.

I played this mod before it got its own forum section and was called imperium, i'm impressed with the direction its taken this whole time. Awesome work.

I think Descartes mentioned, he will incorporate the upcoming RIMP when it is ready.
 
2. Nations gain Military research for fighting battles during a war.

Hmm... depending on the amount of research gained this would make the game far more offensive, not a bad idea though. I think one should only get military research for every war won against scientifically superior nations.

About Rome becoming too huge if there were more barbarian nations: I think Descartes' new idea to not give traderoutes to nations with a civ value below 50% would lower Rome's interest of attacking everyone. Stability costs would rise, newly conquered procinves are relatively hard to pacify (due to the "upset locals" and "nationalism" modifiers) and the main advantage, the gained traderoutes, wouldn't exist. So I don't think it could be a problem.
But one thing to consider: What about the random barbarian attacks? They should be simulated somehow.
And historically the barbarians became to strong for the Roman empire because their lands were hard to control (-> see the Limes wall)
 
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I think Descartes mentioned, he will incorporate the upcoming RIMP when it is ready.
Cool, thanks for the info.



Another suggestion based on playing as a tribal nation. Any way that there could be a decision to become a monarchy rather than a republic?
 
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Other of my recent ideas are about tech-levels. I'd love to steal techs from other players by invading their countries. Maybe it is too difficult to implement, but these ideas are only stubs anyway.
Stealing technology sounds good to me.

Just make sure there is no kind of "technology conquering" going on all the time.
 
I can't seem to find a way to change my capital, either I can't or I don't know how. If there is no way to change your capital, is it possible to make that available? I'm tired of losing my capital in a war, having it move somewhere else and not being able to move it back after the war.
 
Could you guys upload a txt. file with description and scope of the new buildings in version 1.2Beta?

Hmm... depending on the amount of research gained this would make the game far more offensive, not a bad idea though. I think one should only get military research for every war won against scientifically superior nations.
I fully agree with this

Also as already said somewhere else I'd love to have some tool for automated actions like patrolling (Navy and Army)