Except that the divisions will probably not be able to be reconfigured after building while HoI2's attached brigades can be removed and attached to other divisions. They may want to continue to allow that flexibility.battlecry said:
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jdrou said:
This hasn't been stated yet, and I will continue to hold the ability to reform divisions post-construction as my highest hope
- >insert 'determined' face here< -
I don't know if this has already been noticed but while i was translating this in french for another site, i noticed something very interesting :
It's a big step forward.
That means that from now, you won't be able to perform massive landings (including when you bring reinforcements to an owned province). You now have to control big harbours if you want to lead a successfull large-scale landing (for example, you will have to control Cherbourg very quickly or use mulberries during Overlord, just as IRL).
It's a big step forward.
Fernando Torres said:
I really hope that the divisions are template based.
Example:
you create a tank division template named '1939 tank division'. This division you assign two armor brigades, one motor brigade and one SPArt brigade.
In 1942 you need more troops but cannot build new ones. So you 'reform' this template (or upgrade existing ones to 1942 tank division) by removing one of the armor brigades from your (example) 25 tank divsions and changing the motor to mech. Because the brigades have better tech by now and better doctrines, the division doesn't lose much of it's power while you have one addional brigade per division, 25 brigades extra which you could assign to new formations.
If this happens, I hope for an army builder screen, where you can manage your OOB. The last thing I want to have is a situation like in HOI2 where you have to assign brigades one per one
I'm impressed and that is saying something. Really started to hate the whole superstack warfare bit. HoI2 Eastern Front became a war of mass attack with about as much intelligence as two drunken barroom brawlers beating on each other.
Real reserves, real limitations on size of force availible to fight at one time, quality over quantity warfare... all sounding very good from here.
Only wish something more realistic could be done about logistics and food production which were keys to actual WWII victory for the Allies.
Real reserves, real limitations on size of force availible to fight at one time, quality over quantity warfare... all sounding very good from here.
Only wish something more realistic could be done about logistics and food production which were keys to actual WWII victory for the Allies.
Fernando Torres said:
Yes I spotted this straight away which indicates to me that terrain will modify the frontage. Maybe it would be better to say the direction of the attack and the terrain will modify the frontage.
I see a province with a forest as having a smaller frontage so not only will you have a smaller front line to attack into you will also have a smaller front line to defend. Extra troops will have no real benefit.
You could attack a forest with Panzers but this will have the affect of increasing the frontage of the Panzers units so less will deploy in the front line. It perhaps would be wiser to attack with infantry have a larger front line and if you win the battle you then follow up with your Panzers units. The same thing would apply to urban areas.
I am beginning to see that managing your frontage will be a major consideration I still have a few problems visualizing it though.
I am going to take a guess and suggest that every province has a maximum frontage but this maximum can only be reached near the end of the game after you have researched your doctrines and improved your technologies.
I am beginning to look at frontage for a province as being fixed but for most of the game its for want of a better word compressed. As you progress through the game adding doctrines and new technologies you gain the ability to stretch this frontage until ultimately you reach the maximum level.
Terrain will modify the frontage throughout the game but you can overcome some of the drawbacks with technologies and doctrines. An amphibious assault by ordinary infantry will mean a small front line but an amphibious assault by marines will create a wider front line and allow more units to deploy.
Now I am not sure how marines will achieve this ability but I assume it could be similar to armor by a doctrine or as straight forward as marines have a smaller frontage.
Still struggling with why brigades would increase your frontage? I know they physically should but I dont know how this would be of benefit if your goal is to at all times have a wide a front line as possible.
Edit: A forest will modify the frontage of the units\unit type that attack into it. The province with the forest does not need to have a fixed front line as such, though ultimately it may have. For example near the end of the game no matter how advanced your armor divisions are the frontage for armor units in a forest will be larger so infantry will tend to be better.
All this is only guess work by the way.
Edit: Having read this again I am going to have to edit some of the terms I used because they are wrong.
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dpdlc said:
That would be a good thing.
What I reacted on is the tactical nature of Tank vs. Infantry first. The "contact surface", the deapth from the frontline is 0-10km then there is an additional 10km, making a division take up 20km from where it is in contact with the enemy. So the "Tank vs. Infantry first" feels tactical because it might be interesting if we are talking about 100's of meter, not tens of km
It's more a doctrin thing (giving bonuses etc.). But there might be something to it having a value for keeping tanks as a "local reserve" within a division, giving that particular brigade some modifications if the division itself is attacking into some nasty form of terrain where it is very useless.
Also. A thought. If terrain modifies frontage space, then perhaps some units take up less frontage in certain terrain.
I was thinking about the Blitzkrieg doctrin, that shrinks the Armor divisions frontage, creating more of a Schwerpunkt. Well... when making an amphibious landing (at least with the correct doctrine)... might Marine Infantry take up less frontage? Or Mountain troops take up less frontage when defending a mountain etc.?
What I mean is, that some units might not be able to attack a mountain province effectively, but if you throw in some Mountain infantry, they don't take up more frontage, and you can basically get in that extra division of Mountain Infantry.
Inf
Inf Inf Arm MMM MMM
--------------------
Inf Arm Arm
Inf
But Aha, we use a Mountain division (MID) instead of the Infantry division that was in reserve and:
Inf
Inf Inf Arm MMM MMM
--------------------
Inf Arm Arm MID
*a while later*
Sorry, I notice Modestus just wrote about this ^^;;
I'd assume Marines would be able to use Frontage that is 'off limits' to ordinary divisions. They're specialists, so they don't necessarily need a 10km strach of beach to land on, there may be more junk in the way etc.
Idea: Costal fortresses lowering the amount of frontage availible to amphibious units landing?
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a)
Will this new combat model simulate defence in depth?
So far, I've mostly read about a defence line - what about serveral lines, will the model be able to handle that as well?
Provinces are still large enough to incooperate multiple defence lines.
b)
What about reserve units - what decides which units are reserve? If I have 2 INF- and 1 ARM-divisions at my disposal to defend a certain frontage I would like the two INF to spread out along the frontage and keep the ARM in reserv - automatically sending it to any breakthroughs in the first line for counterattacks.
Will this be simulated?
Will this new combat model simulate defence in depth?
So far, I've mostly read about a defence line - what about serveral lines, will the model be able to handle that as well?
Provinces are still large enough to incooperate multiple defence lines.
b)
What about reserve units - what decides which units are reserve? If I have 2 INF- and 1 ARM-divisions at my disposal to defend a certain frontage I would like the two INF to spread out along the frontage and keep the ARM in reserv - automatically sending it to any breakthroughs in the first line for counterattacks.
Will this be simulated?
Im not sure but I doubt it would be hard to allow defence in depth doctrines to allow for more divisions engaged.Hebos.vU said:
On the other hand, don't you think defence in depth is already simulated with this system? Once the first line fails (and the division retreats) The next one will most likley soon take over (new division joins battle from reserves). With a little chance the enemy will flank other divisions from the first line instead (no new divions allowed to join), and once the entire first line is fleeing the next line would probably also pull back a bit to the next province to allow fleeing divisions to reorganize.
Final thoughts.
A unit will have a certain Frontage depending on what type of unit it is, the level or the form of Doctrine and if it has a Brigade.
The smaller the Frontage the more units that can operate in the Front line.
The size of the Front line is determined by the type of terrain in a province and I suppose you could even have it affected by the weather conditions.
The Front line of all provinces have a fixed maximum level but this maximum level can only be achieved when you use the best units in every sense for that type of terrain.
So late in the game you may be able to attack along a front line with 25 units but even in this scenario you may still need to combine different types of units to achieve this maximum front line.
Now I do not know if what I am saying is true but if I am close it does sound very interesting and of course there will be all the other factors to take into account, weapon development, a generals abilities (I can see Guderian being able to lessen the frontage of armor units).
A unit will have a certain Frontage depending on what type of unit it is, the level or the form of Doctrine and if it has a Brigade.
The smaller the Frontage the more units that can operate in the Front line.
The size of the Front line is determined by the type of terrain in a province and I suppose you could even have it affected by the weather conditions.
The Front line of all provinces have a fixed maximum level but this maximum level can only be achieved when you use the best units in every sense for that type of terrain.
So late in the game you may be able to attack along a front line with 25 units but even in this scenario you may still need to combine different types of units to achieve this maximum front line.
Now I do not know if what I am saying is true but if I am close it does sound very interesting and of course there will be all the other factors to take into account, weapon development, a generals abilities (I can see Guderian being able to lessen the frontage of armor units).
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say...the game will have sprites right? the counters are really not that eye catching...
Rich Oliver said:
My thinking is that the ability to command and control such an enormous body of men with unreliable and slow communications during a confused attack will would be less than straight forward.
As men come off the front line it will be difficult to get fresh men to the lines, up that same medium of movement. If it is choked....you either consign men to death, (a waste and very bad for morale) or suffer the challenges of getting men up the same road.
Human Wave doctrin - reducing the frontage space of Infantry
Just look at them run... this way...
By the way. I hope they buy some nicer and "research relevant" pictures that actually show the things being researched.
There are some pritty spectacular pictures showing human wave attacks in Korea for instance.
The concepts thus far has been very nice though
Just look at them run... this way...
By the way. I hope they buy some nicer and "research relevant" pictures that actually show the things being researched.
There are some pritty spectacular pictures showing human wave attacks in Korea for instance.
The concepts thus far has been very nice though
Sorry, but can anyone think of any examples of where more was not better for defence: More infantry for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th lines of defence. More infantry in the 2nd and subsequent lines of defence where they are more immune to enemmy spotting for artillery and air attack. More infantry to garrison every bridge, every town, every village, every hilltop, every forested stretch of road, to stop exploitation of any break through. More artillery to annihilate any concentration of attacking troops, particular enemmy motorised and mechanised vehicles and enemy artillery on the move. More armour and mechanised to support the infantry and to act as fire fighters and to mount counter attacks to cut off the attackers salients.
Beyond a certain level of artillery concentration it would seem that, attacks not would be unsuccessful but would become suicidal. The Russian defence at Kursk, the German defence lines in Italy and the German defence line in the autumn winter of 44 / 45 suggest to me that with enough forces a defence became impossible to break through.
Beyond a certain level of artillery concentration it would seem that, attacks not would be unsuccessful but would become suicidal. The Russian defence at Kursk, the German defence lines in Italy and the German defence line in the autumn winter of 44 / 45 suggest to me that with enough forces a defence became impossible to break through.
Johan, I've got a comment on the map. Nice as it looks there is one big problem, having used it as an example in some of my other posts. The (nice looking) counters are in most cases obscuring the names of the provinces they are in.
I had to look up the area in Google Maps and workout the likely names of the provinces from the cities/towns that I could see.
Even if our general knowledge of places like France, Belgium, Germany, Poland, Russia is OK, I think most people who don't live in those places will not know them well-enough to identify most of the provinces from their position on the map in HOI2. With four or five times as many land provinces in HOI3 this is going to be much more difficult. And certainly we won't have a clue when it comes to less well-known areas (with all respect to South West Sweden ).
We need to be able to see the province names on the map. So could your graphics designer please look at the positioning of the counters and province names to try to ensure they don't overlap?
IMO at this zoom level the font size on the province names and the size of the counters can be comfortably reduced to fit them in next to each other.
On a related note. The problem of managing units in so many provinces. When we get messages in the log that "1st Infantry Division has arrived at Stromstad" this is really difficult to immediately picture the importance of, because I can't even always remember which theatre/front the province is in, nevermind where in that theatre/front.
Could we have more information, please. Even something like including the country name:
"1st Infantry Division has arrived at Stromstad, Sweden".
If we have proper OOB, then even better would be:
"1st Infantry Division (II Corps, 3rd Army) has arrived at Stromstad, Sweden"
If I know the 3rd Army is engaged in South West Sweden then I should be able to find the province/unit fairly quickly.
And instead of:
"1st Bomber Wing has finished it's Ground Support mission"
Could we have:
"1st Bomber Wing (2nd Air Force) based in Goteborg, Sweden has finished it's Ground Support mission"
I had to look up the area in Google Maps and workout the likely names of the provinces from the cities/towns that I could see.
Even if our general knowledge of places like France, Belgium, Germany, Poland, Russia is OK, I think most people who don't live in those places will not know them well-enough to identify most of the provinces from their position on the map in HOI2. With four or five times as many land provinces in HOI3 this is going to be much more difficult. And certainly we won't have a clue when it comes to less well-known areas (with all respect to South West Sweden
).We need to be able to see the province names on the map. So could your graphics designer please look at the positioning of the counters and province names to try to ensure they don't overlap?
IMO at this zoom level the font size on the province names and the size of the counters can be comfortably reduced to fit them in next to each other.
On a related note. The problem of managing units in so many provinces. When we get messages in the log that "1st Infantry Division has arrived at Stromstad" this is really difficult to immediately picture the importance of, because I can't even always remember which theatre/front the province is in, nevermind where in that theatre/front.
Could we have more information, please. Even something like including the country name:
"1st Infantry Division has arrived at Stromstad, Sweden".
If we have proper OOB, then even better would be:
"1st Infantry Division (II Corps, 3rd Army) has arrived at Stromstad, Sweden"
If I know the 3rd Army is engaged in South West Sweden then I should be able to find the province/unit fairly quickly.
And instead of:
"1st Bomber Wing has finished it's Ground Support mission"
Could we have:
"1st Bomber Wing (2nd Air Force) based in Goteborg, Sweden has finished it's Ground Support mission"
potski said:
2 relatively simple solutions I can think of:
a) Make the counters transparent (20-40%) until you hover the mouse over them. This would be a nice effect, and you could still read the counters and province names at any time.
b) Have the counters expand upon mouseover. Only absolutely vital info (for the 'big picture') would be displayed, such as the flag and the unit size (XXXX etc). This would make it easier to put the counter in a non-obscuring spot without having to move them to the edge of a province or reducing the font size on the provinces. There could also be a "expand all" button.
- or, a less than perfect solution, have the province names displayed in a tooltip either on mouseover, or with a button (displaying all province name tooltips).