• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Director: ...Hope all is well with you and yours.

about as good as age and health allows ! !

Director: ...This United States is more aware of its world power, if not particularly eager to exercise it.

well, one thing is certain in life, things change ! ! ;)

so, we simply need to sit back, and watch the change ! ! :cool:
 
Stuyvesant - Glad you enjoyed the update. I rewrote the thing so many times I couldn't tell you if it is any good or not - you do reach a point where you can't tell the grass from the swamp.

What the Germans want in Hawaii is a chance to set off a carefully-staged riot and then step in. What they DO NOT want is to step into a US Marine division... right now the US is the whale to the German elephant, but this whale can strike onto land and the elephant can't swim.

Enewald - right you are, and the Germans will soon move on... China, just as you foretold.

J. Passepartout - knowing Madame, I would bet she is vigorously cursing the people who get in her way, not appreciating how much better her current position is. :)

Jape - Thank you, kind sir! Now the trick is to keep the ball rolling...

Dr. Gonzo - I have to agree with you, that for sheer vain, empty-headed, thoughtless, reckless, feckless impetuous wrong-footedness the late, un-great Kaiser Wm II may have no equal. I would have to rate him as one of the most influential men of the 20th century... in the same vein as the Black Plague, the Mongol Invasions and the collapse of the Roman Empire of earlier times.

GhostWriter - Madame is not subtle in her methods, but she is not overt in their practice. The rumors of what happened to others who crossed her - now those are the arm-twisting weapons she likes.

You are right that the reluctance of the US to exert itself in foreign affairs will change. Partly because I became more confident of being able to survive and win in a war with a European power - fighting Great Britain simply scared the spit out of me. And in part because - well - the AI nations just weren't up to what was coming.

Storey - it isn't out of the question for Germany to do what the US actually did - build up a fake wave of public outrage, spark a carefully-sponsored revolution and then step in 'for public safety'.

Alfredian - something of a commentary on Milady's methods that she has such a collection of nonentities and mediocre talents to work with.

I am not sure they are really going to enjoy Hawaii if they get it.
Sometimes readers come up with the best stuff... if I get a chance I'm going to steal that line, often and with malice aforethought. That is simply splendid. :)

*Imagines buttoned-down, black-suited Lutheran surfers... smiles...*

Vann the Red - Hi Vann! Well, the situation is that neither power HAS Hawaii, but both WANT it. Both have sizeable communities on the islands, and both are encouraging 'public disaffection' for a pretext to move in.
 
“The problem facing the Party, Chauncey, is that we are going to lose.” The speaker was built to the same design as a locomotive, wide and thick with powerful arms and a spade-shaped, cowcatcher-like beard, a resemblance heightened by the puffs of smoke rising from his cigar. He removed the Havana from his mouth and jabbed the air with it for emphasis. “We haven’t got a candidate. We haven’t got an issue that will get the voters out. They didn’t vote our ticket in ‘88, they voted for Winfield Hancock – for the war, and against the Limeys! In the last by-election we lost our majorities in Ohio and Wisconsin. Half a dozen states are leaning away…” He tapped the cigar ash in an elaborate red crystal receptacle. “If we don’t do something, and soon, we are going to lose the Presidency – and likely the Congress as well!”

His audience of one was older and taller, though no less heavy at the shoulders and belly, with an extended nose and a pair of wide ears that made him look like an oncoming bull elephant. “Now Horace, it is not all so bad as that.” He glanced around the lobby, whose classical colonnades and marble were barely visible under the newer, gaudy trappings. What the popular press was calling the Brass Age was in full swing, and the current fashion was to value fittings by weight, volume and expense rather than by effect. In the aftermath of the Atlantic War almost everyone had money, or could borrow it, and the flush of easy credit had promptly led to the worst excesses of crass taste imaginable. Everything was gilded, or bronzed, or slathered in rhinestones, or draped in tassels, or some lurid combination of all of the above. And the colors! Paisleys, plaids and garish stripes vied for prominence, sometimes on the same window. Red velvet had replaced more sober Victorian colors while vivid artificial hues were dumped into carpets like so much spilled paint. The popular humorist Hosea Hogbloom jested that society parties had become too tiring to attend: ‘The man who slows in his motions for a second is apt to be stuffed with flowers, bronzed and made over into a vase, while his wife – should she not be fleet of foot – may be swathed in red velvet and left for a divan of the most overstuffed sort. The result is a mad and continuous dash from place to place, without a moment’s rest lest one be made over as a part of the upholstery!’

“Yes, Chauncey, it is – and worse than that!” The locomotive gathered steam by drawing heavily on his cigar, then punctuated each syllable by bouncing the glowing tip like a coinductor’s baton. Chauncey Depew was too well-bred to roll his eyes but he did rather wish someone would come along and rescue him; he would rather have talked of business than politics, and would have preferred to speak of baseball than either. “The Democrats have given themselves over to that Grange nonsense – to those Progressives. They’re going to throw out everything we’ve accomplished for business in this country, Chauncey! Fair railroad rates for farmers, indeed! Dictating how a railroad sets its rates is only the start! Those Socialists in New York are ranting about a guaranteed minimum wage! Have you ever heard of such a thing? No-one guarantees you a minimum profit, do they?”

“Horace…” Another sidelong look convinced Depew he was not going to be rescued. It would be pointless to try to explain that he worked with legislators every day to guarantee that the railroads he represented were indeed guaranteed to make profits, and high ones at that. Horace Mallow was one of the professional campaign managers working for the Republican Party, and reported to be very good at it, but the man had no understanding of business past knowing that millionaires were to be lovingly cared for. “Very well, Horace. What do you suggest we do? The South will never love us because of the War. The farmers of the West don’t like us because the men who own and run the railroads all vote Republican. Certainly we must insist upon making an honest profit for our investment, or that capital will flow to another, less-burdened field. Our party needs the support of at least one of those regions to keep the Presidency, to say nothing of the Congress. Unless we compromise to woo the Western voters, what would you suggest that we do?”

The shorter man drew hard on his cigar, lifted his eyebrows and leaned in closer. “We should never have taken our foot off the South. There, I’ll say it, if no-one else will.” He pressed the air with his free hand. “But we did, and we can’t very well occupy them again.” For a second, Depew thought he saw longing in the other man’s eyes, and for a certainty he heard a sigh. “We’ll have to conciliate them – give up something that they want, in exchange for their electoral votes. Those states are all run by little juntos – men who can be reasoned with. Not the same as trying to deal with that headless mob in New York City. Compromise with the West is impossible unless you intend to run the railroads into insolvency. The South doesn’t care for our banks and industry, but they are willing to allow us to keep them!”

Depew shifted his weight and leaned down, looming over the shorter man and looking directly into his eyes. “There hasn’t been a Democrat in the White House in twenty-five years, Horace. If you wanted Southern Democrats to pass over that chance, you should have to offer them something substantial.” Mallow looked away and said nothing. Depew leaned in even closer, a bull elephant asserting his dominance. “What. Do. They. Want.”

Mallow flushed and tapped his now-lifeless cigar against the ashtray. “Well. Harrison’s likely to be our man, this time. Hancock hasn’t got anyone in mind, at least.” He looked up at Depew and hurried on. “Yes. Well. There is something before Congress that is of great concern to these Southern fellows. A proposed new constitution for Louisiana. It, um, it…”

“Is an abomination committed to paper.” Neither had noticed a third party enter the conversation until he spoke, frosty distaste dripping from his clear tenor voice like meltwater from an icicle.

“Robert! How very good to see you!” Chauncey Depew turned his attention from Horace Mallow to shake hands with Robert Todd Lincoln. While the two were exchanging greetings, Mallow made to leave, only to find Depew’s giant hand firmly attached to his arm. “Mister Mallow was just explaining to me why my party should support this proposed Louisiana constitution. It seems you have some thoughts on the subject, as well.”

Robert Lincoln’s eyes bulged and his voice rose in pitch and volume. “Support it? Burn the confounded thing in the street, I say!”

“Whatever makes it so repellent to you, Robert?” Depew had not loosed his grip on Mallow, despite the other’s sotto voce protests that he was very late for an appointment.

“It is a sham, Chauncey, a farce of pretty language with malice at its heart. The men who convened, wrote and endorsed that document are the same men who led the South into secession and plunged the Union into war! They no more represent the entirety of the citizens of Louisiana than the three of us speak for the state of New York. What they want is for the Negroes to be dis-enfranchised, and forced to work in the fields as before, and to that end they have concocted this scheme – this monstrosity. The white men of Louisiana propose to restore their old supremacy by instituting a poll tax, and reinstating a requirement that the voter must own property. Already they are denying the claims of the freedmen, on the grounds that men who have tilled their own soil for the past twenty years are incapable of doing so by virtue of their race!”

“The citizens of Louisiana have the right to determine their own government,” Mallow grumbled. “The right, surely, to decide who among them may be eligible to cast a vote, or not.”

Lincoln fixed him with a steely eye. “Half a million men died that this question would be settled, sir! All Americans are free, and all citizens may participate in their own governance. Our founding fathers established that there is no right to government without representation – and to be well represented, a man must have the right to vote. This is a cornerstone of our system of government and no-one must be permitted to overturn it!”

“Not if a man is imprisoned, or if the American in question is female,” Mallow shot back, brushing Depew’s hand from his sleeve and straightening his jacket. “Both are extraordinary instances of citizenship and in neither case does the person enjoy full freedom, or the suffrage. Who are we to say the Negroes of Lousiana are so very different? Across the South there are states that were given over to the administration of the Negroes when their white citizens were dis-enfranchised – stripped of their rights at the order of your father, sir! These men want no more than to set right the morass of inefficiency and corruption that has attended two decades of mis-rule!”

Lincoln purpled and took a step forward; Depew grabbed his sleeve as the other man’s arm rose for a blow. “Robert! Calm yourself, sir! We can have no fisticuffs in the lobby of the Athletic Club!”

Mallow swallowed hard and went gamely on. “The crux of the matter is this, gentlemen – it matters little what you believe, or I, for my own beliefs are not so very different from your own. This constitution will be approved now, and we will receive Southern votes for a Republican President, or the Democrats will carry the Congress and the Presidency in ’92, and – owing us nothing but hatred – pass it anyway!”

“By that standard of logic,” Lincoln ground out, “since you must one day perish, as all mern must, I should receive no blame for killing you myself, this instant!”

Mallow turned upon his heel and snarled, “Good day to you, sir!” His pretense to wounded dignity would have been more effective had his voice not held a tremor of fear, or rage, or perhaps both.

Depew and Lincoln stood silently in the foyer for a long moment before either spoke. “I campaigned for your father, Robert. I believed with all my heart in his messages of freedom, and tolerance, and dignity for all men. How, in so short a time, have we come to this?”

“Politics is but a game to these men,” Lincoln said disgustedly. “No – it is no game, it is more than that. It is life and death! Victory is everything, it is all-consuming. The pursuit of Nike hallows all means if only the end is secured. These men know how to win elections – and they may be right in so far as that – but they know not why.”

Depew regarded him for another moment, elephant eyes sad but resolute. “I will fight them,” he said, finally.

We will fight them,” Lincoln said. “We must rally everyone we can, and if we lose this election we must nevertheless save the soul of the Party. Such a compromise with principle would leave us open to ridicule, would earn us the abhorrence and disgust of every man alive. And worst of all, Chauncey, we should deserve it.”
 
“We must rally everyone we can, and if we lose this election we must nevertheless save the soul of the Party. Such a compromise with principle would leave us open to ridicule, would earn us the abhorrence and disgust of every man alive.

Sounds positively current to today's political situation. I swear some Tea Party/Republican Senator recently said this but with less flowery words.:D
 
I knew I didn't like Mallow when he made the remark about juntos who can be reasoned with.

I am strongly in support of Lincoln, but must admit that if I remember his biography correctly he was not on the same level as his dad politically. Someone who knows more about him can trip me up on that statement, though.
 
Between Mallow and Lincoln you get politics at its most craven and politics at its most idealistic. While my sympathies inevitably lie with Lincoln, I do have to wonder: can he find enough people like him who will forsake political power in the name of grand ideals? Or, more pointedly, can he find enough politicians who are willing to forsake political power?* Given the nature of the beast we're dealing with here (once more that word: politicians) and the setup of the US system, where you're either in power or out of it (the system doesn't seem to be conducive to multi-party politics, where a secondary party might still have influence to wield), I fear that Lincoln's ideals will swiftly disappear below an avalanche of self-interest.

Unless Makhearne decides to throw in his massive riches behind Lincoln and funds his campaign with unseemly large amounts of money, of course (no campaign finance regulation back then, right? :)).

*It's like asking an alcoholic to institute Prohibition.
 
Stuyvesant: ...unseemly large amounts of money, of course (no campaign finance regulation back then, right? :) )

right, no regulations what-so-ever ! ! zip, zilch, nada ! ! :)

even so, those politicians who crave for power will not care about money, because they understand that power brings money ! ! :eek:
 
After 32 years in power I wanted to move the Republicans out of office. Something about getting more state control of factory-building, as I remember. So I used a gimmick - I used some of the obscene amounts of war-reparations cash to change voting rights to 'wealthy' and then, after the election, switch back.

The result? A landslide for the Democrats, who had been gaining on the Republicans for years. I did get the ability to improve my factories... but I LOST full-citizenship, meaning people of non-Yankee type were barred from being promoted to craftsmen, clerks, officers, etc. I also lost about a quarter of my reserve pool of divisions and almost all my manpower... OUCH.

Anyway, that's the rationale for the previous post. Sadly, it somewhat parallels the wheeling and dealing around the elsction of Rutherford 'Rutherfraud' B Hayes. In effect the Republicans gave up trying to enforce African-American rights in the South in exchange for four years of a Hayes presidency.

Enewald - too true. We sometimes forget a politician's job is not to run the country but to win an election. And the US has the very best election-winners money can buy...

Storey - We usually get the government we deserve. Sometmes a little better, rarely a little worse, usually just... what we deserve.

J. Passepartout - Mallow is a 'what' man, not a 'why' guy, worried about means and not ends. Robert Todd Lincoln could have had any office he wanted, but he didn't like public office. He was present at the assasination (or attempt) of three presidents, which later in life led him to decline invitations to public functions.

I didn't know that about London. Sounds like him, though. :)

Stuyvesant - Mallow's point is well put - the South will return blacks to as near to slavery as they can once they have Democrats in office, but Lincoln is likewise right not to wish to be complicit in the acts. Lincoln's threat to make Mallow's manueverings public is a potent one, since most of the powerful men in the Republican Party fought for Union and Emancipation in their youth.

Makhearne will be more active after the election since he can see that a divided Republican Party can only lose.

Ghostwriter - There are laws about elections but how and when they get enforced depends on who is in power. Still, one wouldn't want to do something too openly corrupt since it would make the newspapers and cost you support on your own side. As the Republicans are about to learn, it is the 'fire in the rear' that does the most damage.
 
In the nearly three decasdes since the conclusion of the Civil War the Republican Party had seen its once-commanding majorities steadily fade. More than once the party had been saved from upset by feuding among the Democrats, and more latterly by the unifying influence of the war with Britain. For decades, Republican-voting, black-dominated administrations in the former Confederate states had returned reliable tallies for Republican measures and candidates. Now the former Confederates were once again able to vote and the Republican hold on those states was gone, along with the troops who had maintained order.

The Mid-West had been a reliable Republican stronghold, with the notable exceptions of southern Illinois and Indiana. But with the Union preserved from Confederate and British threats, the people of the region had returned to their traditional concerns: agriculture, and the costs of transportation and loans. These were very nearly also the interests of the East and the South, but there the scale was different. In the East manufacturing had largely replaced agriculture as the top occupation and most men were wage-earning laborers rather than self-employed farmers. In the South the remaining large plantations were still powerful enough to control the banks – and often the same men owned both – while the small farms in the rural South operated almost outside the credit economy. In the East, transportation by railroad and steamship was abundant; matured technology and competition kept rates low. For the Southern farmer transportation was almost always provided by riverboat, at nominal rates.

The West, however, was filled with farms of small to medium size, family-owned and run. The towns were likewise of small to moderate size and the banks had limited capital – capital the family farms needed for short-term loans if they were to plant and harvest their crops. In addition to tight credit, the Western farmer faced relatively high transportation costs compared to his Eastern and Southern neighbors. His fruits, vegetables, beef and pork products could not travel by leisurely steamboat, nor were the vast grain and corn fields located by navigable waters. To get his products to market the Western farmer depended on the railroads. These roads had been built into the empty prairie at great expense and were mostly of limited carrying capacity. All were part of larger corporations, and those railroad conglomerates were constantly at war with one another. To earn the contracts to carry iron and steel in Pennsylvania a railroad must offer the lowest rates, and to recoup that discount the company would raise rates where its customers had no other choices: places like Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Illinois, regions where a small number of individuals had no effective recourse against a large company. Too, the immense productivity of the Western soils produced huge surpluses and drove down market prices, a trend made worse by a decade of bumper wheat crops in Russia.

By 1892 the popular press had been lampooning the Republican Party as a ‘Millionaires’ Club’ for more than a decade. The bankers and railroad magnates were all Republicans, it seemed, along with the owners of the mills and mines. Every measure enacted by the Republican-dominated Congress seemed aimed at protecting the rich and powerful at the expense of the poor laborer, miner and farmer. By the end of the 1880’s the Grange movement had grown from a loose alliance of farmers seeking lower freight rates to a political force controlling the western third of the nation. With the end of the Atlantic War with Great Britain the last prop for a Republican majority in the West was gone.

But neither Democrats or Republicans could look to the elections of 1892 with any assurance. The two parties divided the North and South between them, leaving the vast and growing West to hold the power of decision, a return to the traditional three-fold split that had ruled American politics for decades before the Civil War. Confronted with the demands of the Progressives and Grangers – cheaper credit rates for farmers, better working conditions and pay for wage-laborers and miners, fairer rates for railroad freight, and a laundry-list of social concerns – the Republicans balked. Faced with Southern white-directed violence intended to cow the Negro population into submission again, the Western Populists shied from an alliance with Southern Democrats. With white voters returning to the franchise in large numbers and white office-holders returning to power in local elections for mayor and sheriff, angry southern whites were emboldened to take vigilante action with no fear of consequences. Groups like the Knights of the Southern Cross, the Order of the White Ravens, the mythical Indian tribe of the Azalianas were only three of the groups whose members roamed the countryside, deterring freedmen from voting, owning property and – often – from merely remaining in the vicinity. In this way the black majority populations of Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama were deterred, and the large black minorities in the other Southern states were cowed.

From the election of Abaraham Lincoln in 1860 to the end of Winfield S Hancock’s second term in 1892 there had been an unbroken string of Republican presidents. In a last-gasp effort to spin that out for one term more, a group of Republican power-brokers made the logical – if previously unthinkable – political decision to seek a compromise with the leaders of the Southern Democrats: in exchange for Republican votes in favor of the ratification of the new Louisiana state constitution, the South would cast its electoral votes one last time for the Republican candidate. As dissenting Republicans promptly broke the story to the public, and by doing so split their party asunder, the Republicans lost both the vote against the Louisiana constitution but also the Presidential election.

In this they were helped by the excesses and scandals of previous years. The Hancock administration had taken a number of shortcuts during the Atlantic War, and further instances of graft, corruption and abuse of office were beginning to ooze up. The Democrats were also well-served by their choice of candidate, for Grover Cleveland had been a tireless crusader against corruption both as Mayor of Buffalo and as Governor of New York. The Republican nominee, Benjamin Harrison, had served in Hancock’s cabinet but was little known outside the administration. A former general in the Union Army, he would receive no Southern votes. James Weaver of Iowa, nominated on the Propulist Party ticket, pulled enough votes to throw the election into doubt, but not nearly enough to decide it. Most of the Populists would likely have trended Democratic in the absence of a candidate of their own, and so Weaver’s campaign decreased the margin of the Democratic victory instead of reducing the chance of a Republican come-back.

After victory would come the cold, sober re-assessment, for Democrats were now forced not merely to oppose Republican initiatives,but required instead to formulate goals, fabricate policy and then to win public approval of both the means and the ends. Given the deep underlying divisions between the intensely-conservative, former slave-owning Deep South Democrats and the Progressive, Grangist, individualist Mid-Western populists, winning the election of 1892 soon appeared to have been the easier part.

The electoral maps of 1860 and 1892, when laid side-by-side, show surprisingly little change in the reach of the two political parties. Key to Benjamin Harrison’s loss of the Presidential race were the Democratic victories in Indiana – never strongly Republican – and New York, Grover Cleveland’s home state. With that adjustment, the line of Republican and Democratic states follows closely along the old Mason-Dixon and Missouri Compromise lines. It may be more instructive to note the differences – the explosive growth of population in the West, the moderate but definite decline of the East, the modest, nearly non-existant, growth of the South – with the notable exception of Texas, which would tend more Westerly and less Southern in the future.

uselection1860.jpg

The Election of 1860

uselection1892.jpg

The Election of 1892
 
That's an ignomious low for the party that rose to prominence under Lincoln... But, considering the fact that you say the election was still fairly close, the Republicans should be able to bounce back. If they can figure out how to swing more voters their way, which means more attention for non-large-business interests...

Say, whatever happened to that bully fellow we met during the British-American war? ;)
 
Sadly, the Republican boom of 1860-92 will be followed by a bust... pretty much as actually happened in the 'real' history.

TR will reappear in a very 'alternative' sort of role. I can't say much but it involves another famous author and a book tour. :) His future political career is somewhat in doubt as the Republicans are now out of power.
 
Truly despicable dealmaking, I say again. Why, oh why, would you make a deal to get one state in one election when by refusing the deal it is likely you can keep on winning, that state or no? Of course this is the Gilded Age.

Robert Todd Lincoln could have had any office he wanted, but he didn't like public office. He was present at the assasination (or attempt) of three presidents, which later in life led him to decline invitations to public functions.

I think I recall being told, around the time I went to his house in Vermont, that he was also in or around Boston when JFK was born, in addition to this. Not sure if it's true or even if my memory of being told this is accurate. Unfortunately we couldn't go in the house, but only look around the grounds, because we didn't arrive in time before closing. Did get to see Coolidge's childhood home the same day though. There was a short biographical movie being shown there that for some reason went into a lot of detail about a lot of stuff but almost completely omitting his presidency.

I didn't know that about London. Sounds like him, though.

Read it in a book about prohibition that came out recently. Very depressing in terms of the sorts of people who supported it, mainly a mixture of the sort of religious person who focusses far too much on other people's sins, and an amalgamation of racists who were annoyed about the Germans and Jews who owned a lot of the breweries. Helped out by the brewery owners engaging in corrupt practices from time to time to promote their own interests.
 
Sadly, the Republican boom of 1860-92 will be followed by a bust... pretty much as actually happened in the 'real' history.

TR will reappear in a very 'alternative' sort of role. I can't say much but it involves another famous author and a book tour. :) His future political career is somewhat in doubt as the Republicans are now out of power.

Too bad... I was thinking that Roosevelt's Progressive program could've gone a long way towards regaining voters' trust in the Republicans. Ah well, we shall see what your timeline serves up.
 
All this talk of cats reminds me:

mac_kara_and_baby.jpg

My cat Mac, one of my roomies Kara, and her baby David. In the background is Kara's cat Squirrel.​


Enewald - I don't know how long the darned Dems will hang around. Frankly I'd rather have the Socialists - at least they'd let me employ people of other races and nationalities.

J. Passepartout - if you know you are going to lose the election unless you do something drastic, and the choices are to embrace the Populist/Socialist agendas in regard to minimum wages, working conditions, etc. OR to throw black Americans under the bus... Some people will do anything for four more years.

The Republicans were doomed by growing numbers of liberal voters. The only question was how long it would take them to fail, so I pulled the trigger early.

Stuyvesant - I know; no President TRex is going to be a disappointment (though that is NOT a certainty either way). Still, I shall have to work with what I have.
 
Mac's bigger than our three cats combined! :eek:

Ok, they're all quite small, but still... He is several sizes bigger than that baby!

I guess Teddy could turn dimmycrat and restore the soul of them instead? Well, it's the season for wishful thinking, right? ;)
 
Director: ...Now the former Confederates were once again able to vote and the Republican hold on those states was gone, along with the troops who had maintained order. .. With the end of the Atlantic War with Great Britain the last prop for a Republican majority in the West was gone.

yep, you pulled the plug ! ! :)

Director:
...After victory would come the cold, sober re-assessment, for Democrats were now forced not merely to oppose Republican initiatives, but required instead to formulate goals, fabricate policy and then to win public approval of both the means and the ends. .. winning the election of 1892 soon appeared to have been the easier part.

not to mention, that means a more interesting read for us reARRders ! ! :D

Director:
...The electoral maps of 1860 and 1892, when laid side-by-side...

ALL of the states that voted for Douglas in 1860 voted for Cleveland in 1892, except for Oregon (and West Virginia - which may not have voted for Douglas in 1860...)

excellent update ! ! :cool:
 
Mac’s looking very prosperous. He seems to be enjoying Kara rubbing his head but then what male doesn’t? I think my two cats could run circles around Mac but then what would you expect with 5 month old terrors. They just broke another piece of my wife’s pottery. I just keep reminding her that she wanted them. I even do it with a straight face.;)